been lurking, decided to register ;)

Hello all.

I played a few PBMs back in the 1990s, but never really got very far in any of them.

Galactic Overlord by GEM Games was my first game, then I think a few games of CTF 2187 by Advanced Gaming Enterprises, a couple turns of Samurai Warlords (run by an Aussie GM), a few turns of The Bloody Blade by Damien Games, a few months of Supernova II by Rolling Thunder Games, and lastly a bit of Monster Island by Adventures By Mail about the end of the 1990s or maybe early 2000s? (There was one other game I don't remember the name or GM, but the game I think folded after about 2 turns or so. Was a fantasy wargame about an evil horde about to overrun the land, and players had to design & build castles to protect their villages.)

I had a subscription to Paper Mayhem for about 3 years or so I think.

I became aware of the idea of PBM from Dragon Magazine, as was and am primarily a D&D / RPG gamer.

I have played a bunch of computer strategy games such as Master of Orion (still play it, lots of old games available from GOG.com), Civilization IV, etc.

Anyway I came across a plug for Suspense & Decision via Greyhawk Grognard's RPG blog a while back, and have been lurking and reading posts for a while now. (Read all 3 available issues of S&D.)

My schedule doesn't match up with anybody to play face-to-face tabletop games anymore, so I'm thinking of giving PBM another go.

Thinking about maybe Olympia G4 before it gets too far into the game, or maybe DungeonWorld? Maybe Riftlords as I never played a Flying Buffalo PBM?

My budget for any kind of entertainment is kinda low due to cut hours at work (but more time), so something I can try for free or low cost is best at this point.

Very nice introductory post!

Allow me to formally welcome you aboard the site, and in from the cold of being a lurker (although site visitors are certainly free to just lurk and read, if they prefer that route to enjoying the hobby).

Everyone's perspective differs, on what qualifies as "low cost." But, if it's something free that you want to sate your PBM-esque appetite with, then you still have numerous options.

Olympia is free, as is Clash of Legends. You can run a free position in Phoenix: BSE (starships are free to run there). I believe that Lords of Conquest is free. I looked up DungeonWorld, just now, and it is free, for a single character. Riftlords offers some free turns, I think, but I don't believe that it is free. Interstellar Cluster Wars is free. I think that Midnight/Mu is free. Briny en Garde! is free, if memory serves me correctly. I'm not sure about Lands of Nevron, but I sent Ian an e-mail, just now, to ask him.

StarCluster is free, I'm pretty sure. Diplomacy is free (I think, although you may need the game). Atlantis is free, as is Eressa. To Boldly Go is free. You can also go to http://www.pbem-spiele.de, which if you use the following link (courtesy of Google Translate), you can probably sign up for more than one game. I think that they may be free, as well.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbem-spiele.de%2F&act=url

I hope that you enjoyed the first three issues of Suspense & Decision. Issue # 4 is due out one day later this week.

Hi! I run Diplomacy for free and publish the game maps on the site so you don't need to buy a board. Diplomacy rules are available as a free PDF.

I am also a player in Olympia G4, working out of the Falconlake safe haven. Whether you join my alliance or the other alliance working out of Falconlake, I'd be glad to help you out.

I also have a single point of view SciFi game in public beta. There's just 14 turns left in the beta, but the production game will be free too.

Last, I'll be running a beta for Olympia: The Age of Gods in a couple months. The beta will be free and subsequent game will have a $12 setup fee. I've been running Diplomacy since 2008, so I'm not going anywhere. If you'd like more info on any of these games, let me know.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2893' dateline='1393291326']

Thinking about maybe Olympia G4 before it gets too far into the game, or maybe DungeonWorld? Maybe Riftlords as I never played a Flying Buffalo PBM?

My budget for any kind of entertainment is kinda low due to cut hours at work (but more time), so something I can try for free or low cost is best at this point.
[/quote]

Hi There,

We are the owners of CTF2187. Sadly we don't run it anymore, which is a shame, I loved its tactics and strategy.

We do run probably the most complex fantasy & magic TBG going, which is Legends.

http://www.harlequingames.com/leg.html

And great character/army/magic based battles set in the world of LOTR/Middleearth

http://middleearthgames.com/

Neither of these games are free but if you want the porduct to be good and the Gm to eat, they cant be......!

Whatever you do, have fun!

Feel free to drop us a PM if you want to know more.

Harlequin

Riftlords gives you three free turns to try it out. But it sounds like you MIGHT be more interested in Heroic Fantasy. It is not free, but it's only $3.00 per turn and if you play in a two-week game that's only $7 per month. As someone else pointed out, if you want a well-run game that lasts, you need a paid game. Flying Buffalo has been running pbm games since 1970, continuously, and no one else can say that! take a look at flyingbuffalo.com
Rick Loomis

I think that it's easy to confuse price and value. Free games are are often worth the price. While allowing free play in most games, so that there is a lower barrier to entry, but I do collect freewill donations. These donations do not come with any perks, but allow players to participate in the value of the game. This, I hope, provides the potential to have the best aspects of both free and paid games.

Well, I might be partial, but Clash of Legends is a free game that runs regularly since 2006 with quality standards that are as high as any company. I dare say, even better than most.
I can even say the same for Lords of Conquest, which I also play constantly.

But I agree that’s not the average expectation.

--
GM Team
Join new games at: http://clashlegends.com/PbmSite/
http://www.facebook.com/clash.legends
http://sites.google.com/site/clashlegends/

Free versus paid versus donation.

Price versus value.

If only things were really quite so simple.

The truth of the matter is that it is the end experience which is the sum of all things. Indeed, it is the experience, itself, which ultimately enables one to assess, for their own self, the value of a game relative to price.

If you enjoy a game and have fun playing it, it will invariably end up being a better value for that very reason. Fun tends to have its own way of mitigating the sticker shock of seeing the price of something. An entertaining movie, for example, is likely to be viewed as a much better expenditure of one's money than watching a movie that sucked, for the same ticket price.

And, also, part of the overall experience is determined, not by which company or moderator that you choose, nor even by which game that you choose, but rather, by the other players that you end up gaming with.

The respective merits and demerits of free versus pay versus donation are certainly all worth debating. However, regardless of where one falls on whichever side of that fence, I believe that it is clear that prospective players have quite a bit to choose from, in trying to decide what game or games that they should try.

If I may, I would suggest that you try more than one, either simultaneously or in succession. If you do, then you will find that you will invariably be drawn to some more than to others. It's the experience that you are after, after all. Isn't it?

Where the commercial/paid games are concerned, you might want to look and compare the pricing structures of the respective games that you are interested in possibly giving a go. Are you paying by the turn? By the game? By a certain amount of time? Are there any set-up fees? Do they charge for rulebooks, maps, newsletters, and other materials needed to play the game?

For games played electronically/digitally, there's also the software to consider. Some will invariably prove to be more intuitive than others, to use. How you interface with the game will impact your gaming experience. In hindsight, many old school PBM games that you played through the postal service actually were more easy for players to interface with, than is the case with some modern day electronic variants.

Even on the role playing and complexity end of things, Phoenix: BSE is often touted as being a complex game, and a lot of what at least some players love about that game is what they refer to as the role playing associated with it - even though it is technically a space game.

[quote='Harlequin' pid='2897' dateline='1393327149']

Hi There,

We are the owners of CTF2187. Sadly we don't run it anymore, which is a shame, I loved its tactics and strategy.

We do run probably the most complex fantasy & magic TBG going, which is Legends.

http://www.harlequingames.com/leg.html

And great character/army/magic based battles set in the world of LOTR/Middleearth

http://middleearthgames.com/

Neither of these games are free but if you want the porduct to be good and the Gm to eat, they cant be......!

Whatever you do, have fun!

Feel free to drop us a PM if you want to know more.

Harlequin
[/quote]

I remember reading a review of North Island Campaign back in one of those Paper Mayhem issues all those years ago. Seemed an awesome experience from the review. Maybe someday..

As for CTF 2187, I played maybe 3 games with Advanced Gaming Enterprises. It was very similar to the tabletop miniatures game BattleTech. Sadly their website has not been updated since the middle of 2006. Always regretted never trying their Crack of Doom game.

[quote='John M' pid='2900' dateline='1393341585']
Well, I might be partial, but Clash of Legends is a free game that runs regularly since 2006 with quality standards that are as high as any company. I dare say, even better than most.
I can even say the same for Lords of Conquest, which I also play constantly.

But I agree that’s not the average expectation.

--
GM Team
Join new games at: http://clashlegends.com/PbmSite/
http://www.facebook.com/clash.legends
http://sites.google.com/site/clashlegends/
[/quote]

I did go check your site and Facebook out after hearing of it from GrimFinger.

I played a few of those old Avalon Hill hex wargames back in the day as well.

I'd think about it if you are still starting the Greek scenario games, as I need to ease back into things before getting tossed in amongst a large number of opponents. So I can learn the mechanics before having to dive so deeply into the diplomacy.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2903' dateline='1393352700']
As for CTF 2187, I played maybe 3 games with Advanced Gaming Enterprises. It was very similar to the tabletop miniatures game BattleTech. Sadly their website has not been updated since the middle of 2006. Always regretted never trying their Crack of Doom game.[/quote]

Just as an FYI, I received an e-mail from Duane Wilcoxson of Advanced Gaming Enterprises on January 24, 2014 (a little more than a month ago), and in it he told me that they are still running games, in response to an inquiry from me.

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='2902' dateline='1393346964']
Free versus paid versus donation.

Price versus value.

If only things were really quite so simple.

(snip)

[/quote]

Considering the amount I have spent on tabletop roleplaying game books in the last 3 years, and the very few times I have actually gotten to play them, I am pretty sure I'd get better value from a paid PBM at this point, although I'd have to set a budget and stick to it. In some games that would limit how big my position could grow.

On BSE - yeah I've heard of it going back many years to those old Paper Mayhems and Dragon Magazines, and some old 1980s Space Gamer issues I picked up years ago (heck they are so old there are StarMaster reports in some of them).

Always sounded a bit intimidating to learn the ropes.

That may be part of why I never got all that deeply involved in an one PBM back then - I shied away from the ones that seemed to have a high learning curve, even though the promised experience would have been higher as well.

For instance I spent a few months doing SuperNova II back around 1994, but all I did was "turtle" and build industry and defenses for 10 or 12 turns for fear of encountering an experienced player and getting squashed. Never left my home system at all before I gave up playing.

However, 20 years later I realize I should have just concentrated on having FUN, instead of making it too much like doing chores.

In computer strategy games such as Master of Orion, I always play to the bitter end these days even if getting squashed, just for the experience of fighting heroically to the end even if I lose.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2903' dateline='1393352700']

I did go check your site and Facebook out after hearing of it from GrimFinger.

I played a few of those old Avalon Hill hex wargames back in the day as well.

I'd think about it if you are still starting the Greek scenario games, as I need to ease back into things before getting tossed in amongst a large number of opponents. So I can learn the mechanics before having to dive so deeply into the diplomacy.
[/quote]

Funny, I never thought how our games relate to Avalon Hill. They had a huge influence on my gaming preferences, for sure. I think it is fair.

We do have Greek Battles scenarios, we started 7 games this year alone. It is not as fast to start as the other scenarios with 13-20 players.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2905' dateline='1393354033']

In computer strategy games such as Master of Orion, I always play to the bitter end these days even if getting squashed, just for the experience of fighting heroically to the end even if I lose.
[/quote]

I second that. In fact, as part of my sadistic nature, I tend to enjoy more games where I am badly cornered or clearly losing. I have enjoyed mostly games where I managed to turn an impossible situation. Off course most of the time I am getting squashed :D

[quote='swift2plunder' pid='2895' dateline='1393300385']

I am also a player in Olympia G4, working out of the Falconlake safe haven. Whether you join my alliance or the other alliance working out of Falconlake, I'd be glad to help you out.

[/quote]

I'm leaning towards signing up for Olympia G4 as my first PBM in 15 years. Certainly thinking of one of the more northern cities to start out in. Falconlake might be as good as any.

I have read through all the rules once, but will certainly be learning as I go.

Thinking of just trying to build up a wandering company of soldiers as a first goal. Just explore, gather resources, make some weapons and soldiers, before deciding what else to do.

Sound like a reasonable idea for a newbie?

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='2904' dateline='1393353232']
[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2903' dateline='1393352700']
As for CTF 2187, I played maybe 3 games with Advanced Gaming Enterprises. It was very similar to the tabletop miniatures game BattleTech. Sadly their website has not been updated since the middle of 2006. Always regretted never trying their Crack of Doom game.[/quote]

Just as an FYI, I received an e-mail from Duane Wilcoxson of Advanced Gaming Enterprises on January 24, 2014 (a little more than a month ago), and in it he told me that they are still running games, in response to an inquiry from me.
[/quote]

They should at least put a brief sentence news blurb on their website every year or so to let prospective players know they are still a going concern. It's been since 2006 that any update at all was done to any section of the AGE website.

Even the CTF fan Yahoo group seems to have been abandoned to spammers sometime in 2007.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2910' dateline='1393530182']
[quote='swift2plunder' pid='2895' dateline='1393300385']

I am also a player in Olympia G4, working out of the Falconlake safe haven. Whether you join my alliance or the other alliance working out of Falconlake, I'd be glad to help you out.

[/quote]

I'm leaning towards signing up for Olympia G4 as my first PBM in 15 years. Certainly thinking of one of the more northern cities to start out in. Falconlake might be as good as any.

I have read through all the rules once, but will certainly be learning as I go.

Thinking of just trying to build up a wandering company of soldiers as a first goal. Just explore, gather resources, make some weapons and soldiers, before deciding what else to do.

Sound like a reasonable idea for a newbie?
[/quote]

OK I have touched down in Falconlake in Olympia G4, and have just gotten my initial setup report. Have drafted preliminary orders, but will wait a few days before submitting them.

May be looking for potential allies soon if I manage to get my little unit of soldiers going after a couple turns learning skills in the safe haven zone before heading out to look around the countryside.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2921' dateline='1393818847']
[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2903' dateline='1393352700']

Thinking of just trying to build up a wandering company of soldiers as a first goal. Just explore, gather resources, make some weapons and soldiers, before deciding what else to do.

Sound like a reasonable idea for a newbie?
[/quote]

OK I have touched down in Falconlake in Olympia G4, and have just gotten my initial setup report. Have drafted preliminary orders, but will wait a few days before submitting them.

May be looking for potential allies soon if I manage to get my little unit of soldiers going after a couple turns learning skills in the safe haven zone before heading out to look around the countryside.
[/quote]

Yes, you should be able to support a small unit of pikemen (10-20) for a short time by pillaging. You won't be able to do that once players have castles and start garrisoning them, though. I was going to try that myself to see how well it worked, but it's no inconvenience for me to settle back and apply myself towards being an arms merchant.

When a new noble shows up in a safe haven with 25 peasants, they are usually contacted right away. You should have 2 alliance/mentoring offers in your mail box this week - one from Freelords (my alliance) and one from Phoenix Dominion. If not, send me an email through this board and I'll help you out.

[quote='swift2plunder' pid='2922' dateline='1393853221']

Yes, you should be able to support a small unit of pikemen (10-20) for a short time by pillaging. You won't be able to do that once players have castles and start garrisoning them, though. I was going to try that myself to see how well it worked, but it's no inconvenience for me to settle back and apply myself towards being an arms merchant.

When a new noble shows up in a safe haven with 25 peasants, they are usually contacted right away. You should have 2 alliance/mentoring offers in your mail box this week - one from Freelords (my alliance) and one from Phoenix Dominion. If not, send me an email through this board and I'll help you out.
[/quote]

I was thinking of doing a bit of forest resource harvesting and maybe hiring out as garrison troops. Perhaps eventually go full-on mercenary? But it will be at least 2 whole turns learning skills before I even think of leaving the safe haven.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2893' dateline='1393291326']

Galactic Overlord by GEM Games was my first game, then I think a few games of CTF 2187 by Advanced Gaming Enterprises, a couple turns of Samurai Warlords (run by an Aussie GM), a few turns of The Bloody Blade by Damien Games, a few months of Supernova II by Rolling Thunder Games, and lastly a bit of Monster Island by Adventures By Mail about the end of the 1990s or maybe early 2000s? (There was one other game I don't remember the name or GM, but the game I think folded after about 2 turns or so. Was a fantasy wargame about an evil horde about to overrun the land, and players had to design & build castles to protect their villages.)

[/quote]

Digging through lists of PBMs, I am pretty sure the one fantasy game I could not remember before was "Jurien Range" by PBM Adventures. (I remember designing a hexagonal castle and starting to build a palisade wall around my village, then the game just stopped. Never got another turn result.)

"Samurai Warlords" was being run by Bill Paspaliaris if I remember right. (I remember I messed up inputting order codes on my 2nd turn and ended up looting all the temples instead of praying at them to improve what the conquered populace though of me.)

I also think I tried "Stars of the Dark Well" from Mindgate for maybe 3 turns or so.

I also even tried to design my own PBM at one point about 1995 or so, but I stopped work after realizing I would never be able to have time to do hand-moderation of more than a handful of players, and my programming skills were not up to the task of automating it - mainly I needed to know how to get a database to keep track of everything without inputting changes by hand (some kind of batch input). (Being limited to some BASIC, Visual BASIC, and a little bit of C that I could barely make work.) (Subsequently I learned some COBOL, DOS batch programming, HTML, and Java, but I really don't remember much of anything from lack of use for almost 15 years. These days can barely edit my own webpages I created years ago without looking up how. I ended up going into hardware repair instead of programming.)

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2937' dateline='1393988633']
"Samurai Warlords" was being run by Bill Paspaliaris if I remember right. (I remember I messed up inputting order codes on my 2nd turn and ended up looting all the temples instead of praying at them to improve what the conquered populace though of me.)

I also think I tried "Stars of the Dark Well" from Mindgate for maybe 3 turns or so.[/quote]

I don't remember Samurai Warlords, but I do recall seeing ads for Stars of the Dark Well.

What do you recall about that game?

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='2938' dateline='1394020602']
[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2937' dateline='1393988633']
"Samurai Warlords" was being run by Bill Paspaliaris if I remember right. (I remember I messed up inputting order codes on my 2nd turn and ended up looting all the temples instead of praying at them to improve what the conquered populace though of me.)

I also think I tried "Stars of the Dark Well" from Mindgate for maybe 3 turns or so.[/quote]

I don't remember Samurai Warlords, but I do recall seeing ads for Stars of the Dark Well.

What do you recall about that game?
[/quote]

If you mean Samurai Warlords, it was a pretty much standard treatment of the Warring States period from 1560 - 1600+ or so, culminating in the Tokugawa shogunate. If anybody is familiar with the old KOEI Nintendo / Super Nintendo games "Nobunaga's Ambition" or "Lord of Darkness" it was pretty close to those.

You had a daimyo (one of the historical province lords) and a number of subordinate officers to lead your troops. You had to pay your officers to maintain their loyalty. You had to keep the peasants from revolting in order to have enough rice/ gold production to keep recruiting soldiers.

The goal I believe was to control X number of provinces, and hold the capital province of Kyoto for a certain number of turns. Whoever accomplished that would be declared Shogun. I think you had to have a certain amount of "Imperial Favor" from what the Emperor thought of you as well.

I joined the game about 1 turn late after it had already started. I had Tokugawa Ieyasu (who historically did become Shogun). I strained my economy to the breaking point and raised every soldier I could on my first turn, then stormed into an adjacent province in the direction of the capital. It fell easily.

On my second turn I raised more troops (including from the newly conquered province), and had intended to pacify the population and increase my Imperial Favor by donating / praying at the temples. I stormed into the next province on the road to Kyoto, and it too fell.

Of course when i got my next turn report I found I had entered the wrong order codes and LOOTED the temples instead of donating to them. This resulted in the populace and the Emperor thinking less of me instead of more. No disaster, but it would need some work to correct the situation.

I informed the GM on my next turn about my error, but never heard back at all. No next turn. I hope I didn't cause him to abort the game at that point. (Either from my errors, or how quickly I was building an unstoppable juggernaut army. Of course other human players could have been doing the same thing.)

Another couple of turns and I would have probably been in the capital province. Not sure if I ever came close to another human player at all.

What I remember most was the HUGE map of Japan with all the province borders. It had to be around 18" by 36" inches if I remember right. Of course my memory might be exaggerating a bit, but it was quite large.

And Stars of the Dark Well? What do you remember about it?

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='2941' dateline='1394040923']
And Stars of the Dark Well? What do you remember about it?
[/quote]

Very little actually.

It was a space mining/trading/research/shipbuilding game.

The political climate of the game seemed to be dominated by a handful of mega-alliances that basically controlled about everything.

I agreed to join the Nexus Research (NX) faction as they seemed the least warlike, although there was some sort of border skirmish going on with another faction at the time I joined the game. As part of the deal they were going to provide me with a better ship; however I would have had to spend several turns traveling to one of their main shipyards to take control of it.

The general idea was I would stay away from the front and just start hauling resources around to free up more experienced players with more forces so they could go to the conflict zone.

I gave up playing before I ever even got to the shipyard. Just did not seem to click with me, and being essentially "forced" to join a faction so soon, before I had a chance to find my footing, left a bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah sure I could have stayed unaligned and been considered "pirate vermin" by all the alliances. That was not really much of a choice at all though.

The universe seemed too full of big powers, without enough places that newbies could have gone off to do their own thing.

[quote='NotQuiteANewbie' pid='2937' dateline='1393988633']
I also even tried to design my own PBM at one point about 1995 or so, but I stopped work after realizing I would never be able to have time to do hand-moderation of more than a handful of players, and my programming skills were not up to the task of automating it - mainly I needed to know how to get a database to keep track of everything without inputting changes by hand (some kind of batch input). (Being limited to some BASIC, Visual BASIC, and a little bit of C that I could barely make work.) (Subsequently I learned some COBOL, DOS batch programming, HTML, and Java, but I really don't remember much of anything from lack of use for almost 15 years. These days can barely edit my own webpages I created years ago without looking up how. I ended up going into hardware repair instead of programming.)
[/quote]

Heh, I think just about everyone who's ever played a PBM game has toyed with the idea of setting up their own. This was cited, in issue #2 p.46 of S&D, as one of the causes of PBM Malaise. (Yes, this was in the now-infamous Mica Goldstone reprint.) "...Many players have looked at the results they have got from the game they are playing, and thought that it must be easy money to run a game."

In other words, all these upstart moderators were part of the problem.

I don't really agree. That's like saying the Beatles diminished rock and roll by making it look like any fool with a drum kit could start a band. Well, yeah. Most of them sucked but some great ones arose thanks to their inspiration. And I daresay the entire industry took inspiration from Rick Loomis' pioneering work in 1970!

I have a project on the back-burner myself. It's not that I lack the skills or the vision -- I lack the time. I may have to cut one or another of my other side-projects (which are all equally back-burnered) to get it back on track. Grim's partner-in-crime Mark Wardell had also blogged at length on his own PBM project, which appears to still be under construction.

All of which only highlights the dedication, hard-work, and design-chops displayed by those moderators who do actually carry a project through to production -- and magazine editors as well! This is such a tiny branch of gaming, but the depth of content and design is astounding...