PBM is dead! Long live PBM!

Started by ixnay ยท Jan 7, 2011 16:39 UTC

#10

PBM is both dead and vibrantly alive, depending on how you look at it.

I played a number of classic PBM games back in the 80s -- Battle Plan, Its A Crime, Monster Island, Silverdawn, Out-Time Days, and a few others. And the grand-daddy of all close-ended computer-moderated space empire games -- Empyrean Challenge. I spent hundreds of dollars, obsessed over drafting orders, waited with extreme anticipation for the mail to come, collaborated and conspired often, and even ran a newsletter for my team on EC. At intervals I wanted to run my own PBM game.

The reason I dropped off had nothing to do with the internet. It had a fair amount to do with the *expense* of it all. And there was the perennial problem of having other players drop out -- usually well over 50%, even for games that held a deposit. And finally, some games were starting to become available to scratched that itch while playing them at home -- board games and computer games.

But if you are reading this, you are fan enough to know that there is nothing like a well-done PBM experience. The contact with other players, the laying of long-term plans, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat, etc. Board games can't quite match it, because they're over in one night and you don't really have a chance to connive with fellow gamers much. Computer games can't come close unless they are multi-player, but ultimately fall short for the same reason - they are completed quickly and the pace allows for nothing other than action and grind.

So I miss PBM, big time. But even if the PBM community were as alive and vibrant as its heyday in the 80s, I still probably would not re-enter the fray. For the same reasons. It's too expensive, too many players drop out, and there are many other types of games out there.

I pine for it, as I sit with my Friday night buddies, playing Settlers of Catan and whatever else. I even showed them some of my old turn results, rulebooks, and newsletters (drawing blank stares).

BUT, PBM is still ALIVE, I say! Not just alive - it is booming! Just not in its present form. You need look no further than Facebook. That new genre of "casual games" has taken the web by storm. Games like Farmville, Mafia Wars, etc, have enormous player bases and draw revenue streams that would dwarf what Flying Buffalo took in at its peak, I daresay. Yet they bear many of the same hallmarks as PBM games -- periodic cycles of play, social interaction, excitement and addiction over each new round of play.

And now, lo and behold, one of the great computer games of all time -- Civilization -- is preparing a Facebook version called Civ World. THAT will be a PBM game in all ways except delivery.

So basically, "classic" PBM fans need to move our focus just a little bit and see the opportunities that the dreaded internet - slayer of postal gaming - has made available to us all.

Vern Holford (who ran Empyrean Challenge) is working up a re-release of EC. It is in Beta-testing now. But this time, you send in your turns via FTP, get your new turns emailed to you, and use an Access-based client to interact with the game -- inspecting your ships and space colonies, issuing orders, viewing star charts -- all far more easily than in the old days of paper and pencil. I don't know Vern's ultimate plans, but I suggested that he consider building a web-based version and serving it up for "free" (with revenue from banner ads and fees for "premium content").

I am so into this idea that I am back to considering my own PBM game. PBweb, to be more precise. Free to join, fun to play, casual internet play, persistent environment, with a base revenue from advertising to pay for hosting.

I had thought that the classic PBM genre was quite dead, and was very pleased to learn that many companies are still offering games along the same lines as in the 80s. I wish them all good luck! But I am not going to sink hundreds of dollars into their games. I urge them to move up to a new funding model, and unleash their epic talents on a ripe new audience of modern gamers.

#11

Being on a slow dial-up Internet connection, and connecting to the Internet at anywhere from 24K to 26.4K, the downloads for even trying games such as Empyrean Cluster Wars (the descendant of Empyrean Challenge) are an obstacle, in and of themselves. That's why I haven't tried that game, yet.

That aside, I have yet to find an interface for a newer generation PBM or PBM-type game that I would rate as intuitive, per se. Some are clearly better than others, but all that I have tried, to date, have their respective drawbacks. Fighting the interface helps to kill player interest, and also helps to keep newer games from reaching their full potential as a medium of entertainment.

Edited Jan 7, 2011 17:21 UTC

#14

I will admit that the Access-based interface for Empyrean Cluster Wars is prickly and non-intuitive. Vern and his team are working out the kinks during this beta period. I myself have a strong preference for web-based interfaces which do not require me to run client software locally on my machine. (I made an exception for Vern.) I also think it's clunky to require users to send their turns in via FTP.

A web interface should be well designed and perhaps even customizable by the player. It should handle everything server-side. And as such, it would not present much of a problem for even a dial-up connection unless you're doing heavy animations or Flash-based stuff. Since PBM is print-based, it can readily be delivered via HTML, without needing to resort to animated/dynamic images. We're not talking World of Warcraft, here.

Your point is well-taken, especially considering that most applications and web sites don't have good user-interface design.

For simple PBM-like games (like Mafia Wars), the interface is very tight and simple (perhaps frustratingly so). It would be a challenge to deliver a richer PBM-like experience through point-and-click forms, but certainly doable. I intend to try, anyway.

#16

I haven't seen the interface for Empyrean Cluster Wars, yet, but being Access-based, as in Microsoft Access database type, can be both a plus and a negative for the game. Many certainly are already familiar with Access, but I doubt that such would appeal to the uninitiated. But, again, it really would just depend on how it felt to the end user.

A plus side to sending turns in via FTP is that FTP uploads and downloads tend to be faster than web based ones, but they are likely aiming for a broadband based audience, to which any upload or download times would be negligible, I am inclined to think.

As far as most web sites not having a good user interface, I agree. Heck, I would even apply that characterization to the website in use here on the PlayByMail.Net site, although it is always desirable to continually improve on that aspect of things. So, I can certainly relate. Designing a user-friendly and intuitive interface for a game would likely be a challenge that exceeds designing a user-friendly and intuitive interface for a website, by far.

#20

Well, if the game involves delivering text and receiving text inputs, then is it really different from a web site? The old Empyrean Challenge, which held me in such thrall and sucked so much from my wallet back in the old days, was essentially just that. I received my turn as a computer printout consisting entirely of text, and I sent back a carefully coded set of orders. Preparing those orders was quite a task, in fact, because an error in a simple "move" order could cascade and break a series of follow-up orders.

A web interface can perform basic validation of orders quite easily, ensuring people get things done in the right order, without any obvious mistakes. And it can certainly display text and tables of numerical data with no trouble. Making it all print-friendly would be a bit more work...

So diving into my Facebook concept a bit deeper -- I played Mafia Wars fairly obsessively for a few weeks. Dirt-simple game (and interface), yet somehow it appealed to me as a little persistent universe I could tweak on my lunch break as needed, and watch my little empire grow. It was too small for a real gamer like me, though, which led me to drop it along with Farmville. But that's where I think the great genius minds of the classic era of PBM could reign supreme. They understand fitting a user experience through a text pipeline better than anybody!

While I'm on the subject, I think World of Warcraft could count as a PBM-like. It's very visual, of course, but it involves developing your position over extensive periods of time, in cooperation with your teammates and in conflict with the enemy. The users think they are playing a computer game (which they are), but they are also playing a PBM game. Or no? What are your thoughts?

#21

[quote='ixnay' pid='20' dateline='1294426021']While I'm on the subject, I think World of Warcraft could count as a PBM-like. It's very visual, of course, but it involves developing your position over extensive periods of time, in cooperation with your teammates and in conflict with the enemy. The users think they are playing a computer game (which they are), but they are also playing a PBM game. Or no? What are your thoughts?[/quote]

I've never played World of Warcraft. Some things simply would not be practical on a slow dial-up Internet connection.

That said, I did play a lot of Warcraft II, back in the day, and Starcraft, as well. Lots of repetitious destruction, but fun, nonetheless.

I don't believe that text can really die, as a medium for gaming entertainment, simply because reading isl never likely to become obsolete. Where old school play by mail games are concerned, the player's imagination was a de facto substitute for graphics. While turn orders and turn results manifested themselves on paper, the games, themselves, were played out in players' minds. Computer graphics are ever at a disadvantage to an imagination that is engaged. At least, that's how I perceive things to be.

Where Hyborian War is concerned, if I may use that as an example, I have far more means at my disposal, these days, to communicate quickly and efficiently. However, communication in the current day and age utterly pales in comparison to communication in the pre-Internet days, in terms of how inter-player communication imbues Hyborian War with a greater veneer of quality. The conniving bastards of today simply pale in comparison to the conniving bastards of yesteryear.

#23

World of Warcraft is different from Warcraft 2. It's basically a first-person shooter game, in a fantasy setting, where you wander around exploring a persistent universe. I haven't played it myself, but have watched it being played. You go on quests (often monotonous -- "go kill 12 wolves and bring me their pelts!"), and join with others to form guilds, which is the only way to conduct player-v-player war or to delve into the most difficult areas of the virtual world.

The thing that most makes me tag WoW as PBM in disguise is the obsession of its players. Reminds me of when I was explaining EC to a new girlfriend back in the day, with my gaming-partner-brother standing next to us. Apparently we got so animated just talking about it that she started laughing in delight -- "you're just so INTO it!"

Another modern analogy might be fantasy sports leagues -- same level of enthusiasm from the players. A friend of mine was the "commissioner" of his league for years until it got to be too much for him and he "retired".

PBM in the old sense is rather long in the tooth, but still we have so many people playing so many games with such similar experiences! It kind of reminds me of the foreboding gloom that has descended upon the newspaper business -- this in an era where people are reading more news than ever before. It's just *different* now. But it's still here.

#58

I don't think it is dead, just tat the old guard have ...dies out so to speak. Younger people nowadays prefer some thing more tangable and quick to see results. Not their fault its th way the world/media/gaming has progressed.

A quick look at players ages will show not many if any under 30, in serious PBM that is.

#134

Hm, this is a thread similar to one I posted last Fall; the title is the exact same... where did that original post go? If I remember, it had some interesting discussion.

Anyways, I generally agree with ixnay on several points.

Thec core of PBM games can be characterized (IMHO) by these features:

  • Turn based play (also: long turns)
  • Asynchronous
  • Multiplayer
  • Massive scale (aka, epic or "space" opera-y)
  • Great Depth (in terms of # of possible actions)
  • Lack of instant feedback to create suspense/anxiousness
  • Imagination based (as opposed to graphic visuals)

The (e)mail medium was directly suited to these features, however today it is a dated medium. The way most people use and view the Internet is directly contradictory to important core principles of "turn based" and "no instant feedback". After all, the Internet enabled real time mechanics that were previously impossible (not to mention the advances in computers that allow for 3d graphics) I don't think this fact excludes the turn-based, patient, and imaginative playstyle.

True, the majority of modern gamers (of my generation and younger) might not have the patience or interest in playing a game that takes days or more to receive feedback from and lacks flashy graphics, but they are out there, but PBM was never a mainstream genre. Moreover, given the smaller playerbase, the Internet is a godsend, because it will link us together and pay no regard to geography.

The main problem is, as GrimFinger and ixnay pointed out, is that there has yet to emerge a game that has all these qualities and makes use of modern technology.

#201

As a precursor to announcing Far Horizons I have editorialized my opinions from this thread (and other discussion on the forum) and posted it on my blog. It is located here, if anyone is interested.

#358

I see certain games out there that provide delayed feedback. Farmville makes you wait in real-time as your crops grow, for example. But then again it's not "turn-based". Still, I would consider it a "PBM-like".

Turn-based via a web interface might be tricky to pull off with an audience used to real-time actions. Essentially turn-based approaches are synchronous, but with sufficient time between turns allow for asynchronous interaction -- especially between-turn diplomacy.

In the game I am working on, I will go the turn-based route, even though it will be web-based. It may only appeal to us dinosaurs, but it will be much easier to program, and still give me valuable experience. Maybe real-time can come in phase 2.

#497

Do you have comments turned off or am I just too dumb to find them?

#501

Comments? Here? Just hit the REPLY button.

#503

Sorry, no I was replying to Ramblurr. I miss the good old days when message boards had threaded messages.

#512

[quote='JonO' pid='503' dateline='1301201133']
Sorry, no I was replying to Ramblurr. I miss the good old days when message boards had threaded messages.
[/quote]

Comments where? On my blog? If so, no, they aren't off per-se, they just don't exist. My blog is a very lightweight static html setup with Jekyll and git, and I'm too lazy to implement comments and the headache that brings.

Feel free to reply here though, I definitely encourage the conversation. If its not related to PBM, shoot me an email or PM.

And, yes I do miss the threaded conversation days of early web forums.

#531

[quote='Ramblurr' pid='134' dateline='1298408963']
[*]Lack of instant feedback to create suspense/anxiousness
[/quote]

This was the first thing you listed that (IMHO) is unlikely to be duplicated in a browser-based game. And I would argue that while suspense might be less if you find out right away whether you attempted sale of 1,365 widgets to the gremlin tribe went through at the price you asked for, there will be fewer players receiving a return that they read as saying "Since your first order failed, every following order failed, too. Thank you for contributing $5.95 to the GM's retirement fund, sucker."

[quote='Ramblurr' pid='134' dateline='1298408963']
[*]Imagination based (as opposed to graphic visuals)
[/quote]

If the graphics become the game and the action range of orders is limited as sometimes happens, then I'd agree that graphics are a hindrance, but even back in the day, there were ASCII graphics games on, for instance, Compuserve that players would be addicted to playing so much that they'd max out their credit cards. I think that there are times when the cliche about a picture being worth a 1,000 words is true.

[quote='Ramblurr' pid='134' dateline='1298408963']
The main problem is, as GrimFinger and ixnay pointed out, is that there has yet to emerge a game that has all these qualities and makes use of modern technology.
[/quote]

Then it is up to us to fix that, right? ;)

#574

[quote='JonO' pid='531' dateline='1301250687']
[quote='Ramblurr' pid='134' dateline='1298408963']
[*]Lack of instant feedback to create suspense/anxiousness
[/quote]

This was the first thing you listed that (IMHO) is unlikely to be duplicated in a browser-based game. And I would argue that while suspense might be less if you find out right away whether you attempted sale of 1,365 widgets to the gremlin tribe went through at the price you asked for, there will be fewer players receiving a return that they read as saying "Since your first order failed, every following order failed, too. Thank you for contributing $5.95 to the GM's retirement fund, sucker."
[/quote]

Yes, though I believe future PBM style games that take advantage of modern technologies will be able to provide the traditional delay in feedback+suspense that older games provided, but also leverage the new tech to allow some actions to be instant.

For example, trading or communication between players could go as fast as the players can respond to eachother, whereas jumping a fleet across the galaxy to battle would take longer.

That is, future games will have some faster/instant actions and others that take longer. I think the delay is important, because many people don't have time to play a game every day for a couple hours.

They are dedicated games we require depth, but lack the time to be "hardcore" gamers. In the casual-hardcore spectrum, they lie somewhere in the middle when it comes to time available to play, but all the way to the right when it comes to expectations.

[quote='JonO' pid='531' dateline='1301250687']
[quote='Ramblurr' pid='134' dateline='1298408963']
[*]Imagination based (as opposed to graphic visuals)
[/quote]

If the graphics become the game and the action range of orders is limited as sometimes happens, then I'd agree that graphics are a hindrance, but even back in the day, there were ASCII graphics games on, for instance, Compuserve that players would be addicted to playing so much that they'd max out their credit cards. I think that there are times when the cliche about a picture being worth a 1,000 words is true.
[/quote]

Again, good point. I'm not opposed to all graphics, not by any means, but rather the use of graphics to supplant the imagination. Intense 3d games of today leave nothing to the imagination, they submerse you in a sea of 3D visuals and cinema quality sound, making it a very visceral experience.

There is nothing wrong with these games, indeed, I play them regularly, rather I'm just looking to engage my intellect once in awhile.

[quote='JonO' pid='531' dateline='1301250687']
Then it is up to us to fix that, right? ;)
[/quote]

Absolutely! I'm looking forward to see how your Rimworlds reincarnation progresses.

#578

[quote='Ramblurr' pid='574' dateline='1301408775']
Absolutely! I'm looking forward to see how your Rimworlds reincarnation progresses.
[/quote]

Yeah, me too. ;)

#581

The delayed feedback thing is important. But I do *love* the idea of having a split system, where certain actions take place immediately. If PBM is to enter the platform spaces of the modern era (web, facebook, iPhone), then we need to enable certain levels of activity at all times, particularly communication.

But even in traditional PBM, there are levels of delayed feedback. One of the hallmarks of Empyrean Challenge's production system is that everything you can build takes 4 game turns to move through your factories, during which your factories must continue to consume energy and raw materials, and your workers must continue to eat and get paid. Want to switch to something else? Gotta retool those production lines, first! Got a new technology? It will take at least 4 turns before you see the results of your scientific research hit the field.

Far Horizons, on the other hand, has a one-turn production cycle, with the option to do multi-turn work on large expensive ships. (Which, per my understanding, is too risky. Just put the production into "economic units" and wait until your pool is big enough to buy the ship in one turn.)

In the old computer game Master of Orion 2, you can switch production and research at the drop of a hat with no penalty. Not so in Civilization, where retooling carries significant penalties and careful planning is rewarded.

I remember this old school wargame put out by SPI called "global war" (wwii), in which any of the major powers could endeavor to build "the bomb", but at such a long lead time that the game could easily end before completion.

#587

One thing to keep in mind when comparing the rate at which things progress in game, is the in game "time passage" that one turn represents.

I'm not familiar with Empyrean Challenge, but in FH, one turn is 5 in-game years. So it makes sense to produce things in one turn.

Of course I don't think that is the end-all solution. Each game will have its own flavor which contributes to its uniqueness. Otherwise I would have become sick of the sci fi 4X genre years ago.

This doesn't belong in this thread, but: I do think FH could use some fixing or re-design in certain areas. One of which is drawing things out over longer turns, and more technologies.

Personally, I loved the technology system in Rolling Thunder's Supernove: Rise of the Empire. Tech's took ages and ages to research, but the result was gaining one new technology was a significant event! Of course it took you several turns to put the tech to use. In many other games (MOO, CIV1-5, etc.) new technologies are quickly supplanted by newer versions, i.e., you don't even get a chance to implement a tech before the next one is finished.

#616

[quote='Ramblurr' pid='574' dateline='1301408775']
For example, trading or communication between players could go as fast as the players can respond to eachother, whereas jumping a fleet across the galaxy to battle would take longer.

That is, future games will have some faster/instant actions and others that take longer. I think the delay is important, because many people don't have time to play a game every day for a couple hours.
[/quote]

This is what I'm shooting for in my game. Anything related to communication is instantaneous, but anything that involves moving matter around is real time. So a ship could take three days to cross a star system or 24 hours to jump to another star system, but messages, reports, and buying/selling will happen instantly. Of course in the case of buying/selling, the goods still have to be picked up and moved around in real time.

Hatch
http://projectlibertine.blogspot.com