Factional Redesign of The Gift

Here are the topic questions that are needed answering? Just copy and paste these below bullet point questions into your post and add your thoughts

• Factional Name: The Gift Religion

•The primary purpose for the faction to exist?
•What distinguishing feature does this faction have?
• What specific in-game benefit can this faction have?
•What makes this faction interesting and fun to play?
•What (usually mutual) factional enemies?

• Factional Name:

The Gift Religion

•The primary purpose for the faction to exist?

To bring the two greatest teachings to the world from The One True god,  Construction of Architecture to the world, and Healing knowledge.

•What distinguishing feature does this faction have?

Back before Zan E. (Midgard USA), the Gift did both Building/Construction, and Medical/Healing to the world of Midgard. Zan allowed the Serkanar  faction to be created and stripped away the Healing side of the Gift and gave it to the Serks. Also Zan created the City Building of Hospitals within the game, but as per Davin that is not going to be within the game. So being that the Serks do not exist within this version of the game, then I believe this Healing ability should be returned back to the Gift again.

• What specific in-game benefit can this faction have?

The Gift temple will add Healing care to the people of the city.
The Gift can build things faster because they add more mancycles to any construction project including a bonus to the city projects.
A Gift clan can host (4) Construction projects at a time, and get a bonus in construction mancycles.
With their ability of Herbalism and Apothocary they look to bring the healing arts to the people to improve their health.

•What makes this faction interesting and fun to play?

They are the healers of Midgard and can be roleplayed in that light. They can also roleplay in learning how to build other city building types to be added to make the lives of the people better. They are he builders of cities and the culture of Midgard.

•What (usually mutual) factional enemies?

Enemies:
Blood & Fire, Barbarians, Bandits, Pirates

Allies:
Getham Family, Ring Religion

Other notes:
Skills: are important to me and they help me better understand the character of a faction and clan

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HRB - Herbalism
APT - Apothocary
SRG - Surgery
RES - Research

Hmmm... I don't mind a faction having more than one game benefit, provided it doesn't overbalance other factions. I think we should compare benefits between factions to make sure this doesn't give any one of them too much advantage.

I don't know about alchemy -- it traditionally hasn't had anything to do with healing.  It was mostly about things like turning lead into gold (which wouldn't be a great idea in a gold-based economy, anyway).

Would it be better balance if some other faction could do that sort of pseudo-scientific experimentation?  Assuming, of course, that anything productive actually manages to come from alchemy in the first place.

I think that construction bonuses and architectural engineering would be pretty significant advantages just by themselves, especially together.

Providing general healing in temples to improve city health certainly sounds valuable, too. I think that could take the place of "hospitals" easily enough.

[quote=Davin]
I don't know about alchemy -- it traditionally hasn't had anything to do with healing.  It was mostly about things like turning lead into gold (which wouldn't be a great idea in a gold-based economy, anyway).

Would it be better balance if some other faction could do that sort of pseudo-scientific experimentation?  Assuming, of course, that anything productive actually manages to come from alchemy in the first place.
[/quote]

Alchemy (from Arabic: al-kīmiyā) was an ancient branch of natural philosophy, a philosophical and protoscientific
tradition practised throughout Europe, Africa, and Asia, originating in Greco-Roman Egypt in the first few centuries.

Alchemists attempted to purify, mature, and perfect certain materials. Common aims were chrysopoeia, the transmutation
of "base metals" (e.g., lead) into "noble metals" (particularly gold); the creation of an elixir of immortality; the creation of
panaceas able to cure any disease; and the development of an alkahest, a universal solvent.The perfection of the human body
and soul was thought to permit or result from the alchemical magnum opus and, in the Hellenistic and Western mystery
tradition, the achievement of gnosis. In Europe, the creation of a philosopher's stone was variously connected with all
of these projects.

In English, the term is often limited to descriptions of European alchemy, but similar practices existed in the Far East,
the Indian subcontinent, and the Muslim world. In Europe, following the 12th-century Renaissance produced by the
translation of Medieval Islamic works on science and the rediscovery of Aristotelian philosophy, alchemists played a
significant role in early modern science (particularly chemistry and medicine). Islamic and European alchemists developed
a structure of basic laboratory techniques, theory, terminology, and experimental method, some of which are still in use
today. However, they continued antiquity's belief in four elements and guarded their work in secrecy including cyphers
and cryptic symbolism. Their work was guided by Hermetic principles related to magic, mythology, and religion.

Modern discussions of alchemy are generally split into an examination of its exoteric practical applications and its
esoteric spiritual aspects, despite the arguments of scholars like Holmyard and von Franz that they should be understood
as complementary. The former is pursued by historians of the physical sciences who examine the subject in terms of
early chemistry, medicine, and charlatanism, and the philosophical and religious contexts in which these events occurred.
The latter interests historians of esotericism, psychologists, and some philosophers and spiritualists. The subject has
also made an ongoing impact on literature and the arts. Despite this split, which von Franz believes has existed since the
Western traditions' origin in a mix of Greek philosophy that was mixed with Egyptian and Mesopotamian technology,
numerous sources have stressed an integration of esoteric and exoteric approaches to alchemy as far back as
Pseudo-Democritus's first-century AD On Physical and Mystical Matters (Greek: Physika kai Mystika).

Although alchemy is popularly associated with magic, historian Lawrence M. Principe argues that recent historical research
has revealed that medieval and early modern alchemy embraced a much more varied set of ideas, goals, techniques, and practices:

[quote=Davin]
Hmmm...  I don't mind a faction having more than one game benefit, provided it doesn't overbalance other factions.  I think we should compare benefits between factions to make sure this doesn't give any one of them too much advantage.
[/quote]
Note the main benefit would be the Engineering bonus hat would mostly be used.

The Medical befit would be more of a bonus for a city and roleplaying element for the player to pursue if they wanted to with Special Actions. There was never much of a real ingame benefit for the Healing/Medical side.

The Alchemy side of things is really the same as the Medical side, it is just another Roleplaying element that can tie both the Engineering and Medical together.

I am trying to "round" out the faction making them fun to play and interesting to pursue things if players choose to do so. The Medical and Alchemy would not amount to much in the every day to day game play, but they would add to the flavor of the Religious faction allowing players to dig into matters and roleplay things...plus they all sort of fit together.

Yes, although I probably wouldn't consider looking for an elixir of immortality or cure-all panacea to be much of a benefit to general health maintenance, unless it actually worked.  I agree that the study of alchemy led to the methodical principles used in science, in general, but I'm thinking that was it's primary contribution to health and medicine, rather than any kind of a direct improvement understanding or treatment of health problems (which is kinda what we need in our context).

OTOH, learning about sanitation and herbal remedies IS directly concerned with improvements in overall health and religions would certainly sound like a great place to accumulate that sort of wisdom.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137258' dateline='1578073736']
I am trying to "round" out the faction making them fun to play and interesting to pursue things if players choose to do so.
[/quote]

Hmmm...  Alchemy might be a fun thing to play with, but unless it can produce tangible results I don't know if it would be something people would want to pursue.

I can see using that as trying to learn about our form of Science, and perhaps something will eventually come from using the "scientific method" to figure out other things.  But I don't see that as a direct relationship with health care and that could be done by anyone (and methodically pursued by any faction we care to "assign" it to).

OTOH, perhaps the Gift could include in their specialties the study of the natural world, improving the scientific method of such study, and looking for new treatments all the time to improve their healing arts.  Discovery of penicillin may be an awfully long way away, for instance, but aspirin might well be within reach.  We also know that sanitation is very important to health in many ways, but in the medieval times disease was considered to be caused by "bad smells".  It'll take some scientific work to make that sort of leap.  (Did you know that Air Conditioning was first invented as a hospital health measure?)  And there are a ton of technological advances related to health care that could be pursued over long periods of time (e.g. microscopes).  I think such things could provide considerable opportunity for fun play.

Well Alchmey covers a wide range of things but it could allow players to look into other things like:

- Greek Fire
- Gun Powder
- Oil
- Poisons (liquid/powder)
- Acids
- The Secret of Steel
- Magic (of sorts maybe)

To name a few items!

Now there are other terms too like Herbalism, and Apothecary as well.

AFAIK, all of those are more scientific in nature and alchemy studies couldn't figure out any of them with the methods they used.  Remember that alchemy was based on having only four elements in all of existence.

(Crude oil could be scooped off the ground in a few places in our world and may probably already be available in relatively small quantities.)

[quote=Davin]
AFAIK, all of those are more scientific in nature and alchemy studies couldn't figure out any of them with the methods they used.  Remember that alchemy was based on having only four elements in all of existence.

(Crude oil could be scooped off the ground in a few places in our world and may probably already be available in relatively small quantities.)
[/quote]
Ok what about Herbalism or Apothecary....HRB - Herbalism  was a Skill in Midgard USA. Would you want to swap Alchemy  for Herbalism?

HRB - Herbalism:

Herbal medicine (also herbalism) is the study of botany and the use of medicinal plants. Plants have been
the basis for medical treatments through much of human history, and such traditional medicine is still
widely practiced today. Modern medicine makes use of many plant-derived compounds as the basis for
evidence-based pharmaceutical drugs. Although herbalism may apply modern standards of effectiveness
testing to herbs and medicines derived from natural sources, few high-quality clinical trials and standards
for purity or dosage exist. The scope of herbal medicine is sometimes extended to include fungal and bee
products, as well as minerals, shells and certain animal parts.

Herbal medicine is also called phytomedicine or phytotherapy. Paraherbalism describes alternative and
pseudoscientific practices of using unrefined plant or animal extracts as unproven medicines or
health-promoting agents. Paraherbalism differs from plant-derived medicines in standard pharmacology
because it does not isolate or standardize biologically active compounds, but rather relies on the belief
that preserving various substances from a given source with less processing is safer or more effective
– for which there is no evidence. Herbal dietary supplements most often fall under the phytotherapy category.

APT - Apothecary:

Apothecary (/əˈpɒθɪkəri/) is one term for a medical professional who formulates and dispenses materia
medica (medicine) to physicians, surgeons, and patients. The modern pharmacist (also colloquially referred
to as a chemist in British English) has taken over this role. In some languages and regions, the word
"apothecary" is still used to refer to a retail pharmacy or a pharmacist who owns one. Apothecaries'
investigation of herbal and chemical ingredients was a precursor to the modern sciences of chemistry
and pharmacology.

In addition to dispensing herbs and medicine, the apothecary offered general medical advice and a range
of services that are now performed by other specialist practitioners, such as surgeons and obstetricians.
Apothecary shops sold ingredients and the medicines they prepared wholesale to other medical practitioners,
as well as dispensing them to patients. In seventeenth century England, they also controlled the trade of
tobacco which was imported as a medicine.

I like the ideas of Herbalism and Apothecaries - they make much more in-game sense.  They'd need to have some specific game-effects, though.  Just helping keep a city "happy" may not be enough to make them that useful.  They could help with wounded clan members as a side effect.  Perhaps the apothecary could put some of their non-perishable goods on the market, for starters?

So are you saying do away with the Skill of MED-Medical and replace it with HRB - Herbalism and APT - Apothecary so then the Gift skills would be.

PRE- Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HRB - Herbalism
APT - Apothecary

Maybe with (11) Gift cities on the market you see as a Item for sale of Medicines for sale.

Now the benefit of a bonus to a cities Happiness rating is important because with a low rating a city can be under revolt and possible change whom it is declared for. Maybe you should also add a Health & Sanitation stat to a city as well. Maybe a Gift temple also aids that stat with a bonus as well. Maybe a Order is developed to allow a clan to within a city with Gift temples issue an order like: CLAN - HEAL - <CHARACTER> <CITY #>...this way heal for a fee one character one level of wound with a cycle depending on the levels of Gift Temples in the city like: (11) Gift heal 1 point, (21) Gift heal 2 points (30) Gift heal 3 points. Thus with the more Gift temples within the city the more and better Healing care is available to anyone seeking.

Perhaps something like that.  As I mentioned before, I'd like to have skills be a potential add-on (for later) to what the faction is and does.  What an apothecary might do (if it becomes a Gift-based building type) is manufacture herbal remedies to be used by the city population and any excess to be added to the market that can be bought/sold, potentially for use in the field, for instance.  And Gift temples might themselves provide speedier-than-natural healing of injured clan members staying there for recuperation, more temples thereby providing help for more members simultaneously, maybe.

Of course, all this is just an off-the-cuff idea for further discussion, but it sounds like a good direction to be thinking about.

Many of the different factions offered other benefits at different levels like the example I gave of: (11) Gift temples, (21) Gift temples, and at (30) Gift temples (that would make the complex of a Cathedral). Some factions used different levels like (6), (15), (25) and (30). The factions can redesign what these levels could be and what the level gives you.

Now for the Gift, I like to return the faction to doing both Building and Healing. I can have a lot of fun with that in game and roleplaying. At my core I am a builder and that is super useful within this game. I believe I could very much guide the Gift to become great faction within this game. I am trying to make the faction fun to play.

Generally I like having smooth improvements in benefits, but I'm willing to work with "stepped" improvements if that works out well.

As for combining both, here's a quote from a sci-fi book that seems applicable:

I figured the construction company's name "BuildStrong" could also mean "build strong bodies"...

So what about updating the design description to include some of this stuff and see if we can get anyone else to comment on this.  We really need more design input than just from a couple of us.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137294' dateline='1578434564']
Many of the different factions offered other benefits at different levels like the example I gave of: (11) Gift temples, (21) Gift temples, and at (30) Gift temples (that would make the complex of a Cathedral).  Some factions used different levels like (6), (15), (25) and (30).  The factions can redesign what these levels could be and what the level gives you.
[/quote]

Question:  I don't recall their being any particular limiting factor in building temples/offices in a city.  Shouldn't there be some sort of maximum number possible for a given city population?  (IOW, I wouldn't want to see hundreds of temples in a city of a few thousand people, right?)

Actually I have never seen any level limits ever proposed, but it was rare that cities had that level buildings built up to great levels to really matter. The only cities that I ever saw that, were the Cymru cities. Their rule of thumb was to build up a cities Annex to 30. They then built 1 city building per annex (Education, Cultural, Armories, Hospital, Guild Halls, Ippodrones) then 30 factional buildings and at level 30 Factional building is some special building type. For the Seekers it was a Great Library. Most cities honestly were not anywhere near these levels, that was because most were not builders.

Maybe state that it is 1 city building type per annex, and cap the factional Offices or Temples at (30). For (30) Temples, that is a Cathedral with special ability for reaching that level. Your going to have to work that out with the players.

I feel the Gift redesigned with both the Building and returning the Healing back to them would be a good game faction to have within the game. I would be proud to run them and would be happy to work as a Gift Senior again. I also know I could fill out the faction with both players and clans again.

Skills: are important to me and they help me better understand the character of a faction and clan

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HRB - Herbalism
APT - Apothocary

I would state a starting clan might set up their skills as follows:

Ldr: PRE-2, REC-2, ENG-1, HRB-1, APT-1
 F1: ENG-1
 F2: ENG-1
 F3: ENG-1

See if you can convince the others of your vision.  I'm trying to "play judge" here and just keep the game system fair and fun.  I'd prefer to rely on the players themselves to tell me what factional choices they want to have available for play.

I also would like to add ONE MORE detail....

Being that the Gift are using "skills" to heal people, can they also have the God given Power to "Lay Hands" on the wounded and actually "magically" heal a wound as well? This would be similar to the Ring's Divination power?

I was thinking...to make the Religions of Midgard more than just a paper lion...give them some Holy Faith power granted by God

The Ring have Divination Power - gives the Ring through Special Action to ask a question and maybe get a answer  from God (the GM).

The Gift should have Healing Power - gives the Gift the power to "heal" what that means all depends on the Special Action and what is needed.

The Banner should have Bless Power - gives the Banner the power to get a bonus in combat or some other Special Action requested need.

All of these add color to these faiths and makes them all very much different from each other. Remember they are "Faiths" and that has to mean something in the game to allow for a different point of view.

Maybe for a character to be granted such power of healing, they must have the following:

PRE-3, HRB-3, APT-3

Most likely it will be the Clan Leader  that has these skills, but followers could also have it. This way not everyone would have the ability, and it would need to be pursued by the players in game to get such ability. Even once they they get the ability, it would be more of a Faith and Roleplaying perk than a real everyday use in the game.

OK I am sorry the above approach is a pure manual approach to this process as it was before within the game. Now as it has been explained to me that the Divination ability that the Ring had was not actually within the code but rather handled by the GM through the a special action and that the GM would read the SA and decide what to reply from there. No code at all.

Now what I am defining how the GM might do it in a manual approach once again, BUT he could also code it as a formula where it looks at a character and if they have "x-3""y-3""z-3" then they can do this. It is kind of just giving a idea of what it might be based on. I guess I am just stuck in that old way of thinking Davin, sorry. Easier to say just code it than actually doing it.

I'm a badddddddddddddddddddd Boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!  :angel:

I'd be worried about adding "real magic" to a game that's based on a time in our history and such things didn't exist.  I'd also worry that if we start down that path then players might want lots of magical things added for what they feel is justifiable reasons.  This would drastically change the flavor of the game, and I'm not sure everyone would welcome it.  It would also have the potential to seriously disturb game balance.  I think I'd need some serious convincing that such a thing would benefit the whole game system.

Well firstly it is based of "faith" in a God and the "magic" is give to those followers in that faith. Thus if you believe and follow the "True Faith" then you too can share the Power that GOD grants his loyal followers!

It's still "magic" and not based on scientific principles (even unknown).  And what then happens to all the other religions?  They're going to ask for "favors" from their gods, as well, aren't they?  And what about any new religion that starts up from nothing - what will they demand that they have?

Do you see how this could get out of control?

[quote=Davin]
I'd be worried about adding "real magic" to a game that's based on a time in our history and such things didn't exist.  I'd also worry that if we start down that path then players might want lots of magical things added for what they feel is justifiable reasons.  This would drastically change the flavor of the game, and I'm not sure everyone would welcome it.  It would also have the potential to seriously disturb game balance.  I think I'd need some serious convincing that such a thing would benefit the whole game system.
[/quote]

WHAT are you saying that Magic is all a LIE?

Are you saying that the Power of the Ring Religion is False and just BS?

So then your saying that The One True God is a false God and doesn't really exist. That would mean that the three religions are all BS. All the Gods are just made up tales in-order to control us. We have all been lied to.. . we should burn all the religions temples to the ground and kill all the religious liers!

And get that Rulebook too and that GM behind the curtain too...<LMAO>!!!

[quote=Davin]
It's still "magic" and not based on scientific principles (even unknown).  And what then happens to all the other religions?  They're going to ask for "favors" from their gods, as well, aren't they?  And what about any new religion that starts up from nothing - what will they demand that they have?

Do you see how this could get out of control?
[/quote]

Well as I have already stated and defined for the current three religions you cold make the Holy Faith Power based off of that faiths prinicipal and teachings like:

Gift - Healing

Ring - Divination

Banner - Bless

Make the players figure it out what would work, it kind of makes it all part of the design a faction thing fun. Maybe those that define the Blood & Fire might deside on Fear  for their God given power?

[quote="DreamWeaver" pid='137433' dateline='1579843410']
[quote=Davin]
It's still "magic" and not based on scientific principles (even unknown).  And what then happens to all the other religions?  They're going to ask for "favors" from their gods, as well, aren't they?  And what about any new religion that starts up from nothing - what will they demand that they have?

Do you see how this could get out of control?
[/quote]

Well as I have already stated and defined for the current three religions you cold make the Holy Faith Power based off of that faiths prinicipal and teachings like:

Gift - Healing

Ring - Divination

Banner - Bless

Make the players figure it out what would work, it kind of makes it all part of the design a faction thing fun. Maybe those that define the Blood & Fire might deside on Fear  for their God given power?
[/quote]

Hey, I love sword and sorcery stories, but just how far are you willing to stray into that territory with a Medieval game that's technologically based on a historical time period?

At the core Midgard is a FANTASY based game that is BASED on a like Earth's technologically from an historical time period.

Having defined Magic that is based on the God's would be exceptable. Look at it from the aspect that not everyone that plays a religion clan would have the ability of their faith to do their faith's special ability. They have to earn it in game and that means searching in game and training up the levels of those skills to become worthy of being granted the special God given ability. Let's use the Gift, they have the special God given ability to Healing. Now when the Gift clan starts off they have the basic skills of PRE, HRB, ATP. That gives them the knowledge to begin to understand and how to do medical skills to help someone. Now if that same character wants to strive to actually obtain the God gven spell ability to Lay Hands, they must purse factional based knowledge in some related factional skills to say level 5 (PRE-5,HRB-5, APT-5). When a clan character reach that level for a character within their game, then that character gains the God given faith spell ability. Quite frankly that would take 3-5 years of constant game play to reach those skills levels in those three skills. The gained special perk would not over power anything in the game, it is more of a roleplaying point and character building element for the player of that clan.

Davin if you have a player that makes it 5+ years to reach that level, then you have a die-hard Midgard gamer and have succeeded. This game will never by D&D, and difining this magic as God Given explains it. As to new religions starting up, well it just requires those players to work out the details with you. Find that niche that their faith fiits in a a god given spell ability that works for that factional faith. Here are some examples:

GIFT - Healing
RING - Divination
BANNER - Bless

BLOOD & FIRE - Fear
CULT of the DARK ONE - Invisibility

As I stated all these special spell abilities can be cast on a single character, creature, item once a cycle by the character that has achieved their God's special level of Faith.  These are really only Special Action related skills that would be moderated by the GM in any use case. This just adds to the color of playing the game and roleplaying your clan that you have spent so long in game and paying to play your turn. Is it really that much extra, I don't think so at all. Yes this is magic within the game but honestly how many players do you seriously thing will ever reach this level. :dodgy:

I should also point out that much of what I am bringing up is from my long talks on the topic with former game owners of Midgard game like Zan E., the two different UK Midgard versions owners of (Andy and Stephine W.) and Jon Capps. As Jon has said this would only open up a chance for a GM to actually engage with the long standing player and roleplay more with the player and get involved more with the player and his roleplay within the game. This would allow the GM to also have some interaction fun to with their game and the players within the game.

For the record, I HATE the idea of compartmentalized religions, such as has been proposed. I don't like this "D&D" approach to the religions.

Such as the Gift - Healing, Ring - Divination, et al.

The religions should be ecosystems of religious insight that develop uniqueness over time. The Gift has always been good at building, it how their faith in the One True God evolved over time. The Ring have been diviners because their uniqueness manifested in a specific way. All religions, at least of the One True God should have the ability to heal. That should be the common denominator that holds them together as believers in the One True God and reflects their common origin. The Gift should be good builders because they focus their efforts on being builder, their theology of the OTG focuses on creation and innovation. The Ring focus on potential and the future and therefore are blessed with insight. The Banner has a zeal for evangelism and spreading the faith of the OTG and excel at physical prowess. I prefer for the religions (and all factions) to have a logical explanation for their Factional perks that make sense and honor the continuity of the story as it has been told since the game started.

Let me point out a few facts...

FIRST: Within this version of the game, the game GM/Owner Davin has decided that he is taking out of play the city building of "Hospital". That means there is NO general medical services or healing aid to the peoples of Midgard.

SECOND: Within this version of Midgard the Serkeanar Religion Faction does not exist, in Midgard USA  under Zan E. it was a Religion that was given Healing/Medical power, after Zan took that power/ability away from the Gift religion.

THIRD: Talking to Jon Capps, whom recoded the Midgard game and then sold a copy of the game code to Midgard USA/Zan E. The Gift Religion as was designed had BOTH the the power of Construction/Building and Healing. Under Zan E of Midgard USA, he took away the Healing ability from the Gift and gave it to the newly designed faction of the Serkeanar.

FORTH: I know Oliver you think every religion should have Healing, but that does not happen within this game. Now their are two skills that would grant or give you medical skills knowledge. Those skills are HRB - Herbalism, and APH - Apothecary both of which I have proposed as skills for the Gift. The former MED - Medical skill was gotten rid of by Davin the GM.  So I guess if someone else obtained both of these two skills then they could learn medical skill of heal much as our doctors of today.

FIFTH: Since I am proposing a Holy Power of God granted Faith Magic, and stating that to earn that ability a character would need to  get the following skill set: PRE-5,HRB-5,APH-5. To obtain that it would take a player 4.5 years of in game play at the least to get that if one game startup they gave themselves PRE-2,HRB-2,APH. Honestly even once a character gained that God grant power, it would not be over powering or etc. If you have a player that is willing to pay to play for 4.5 years then  so what, that player has earned that small roleplaying perck that really can only be used in Special Actions.

This is not a D&D model, it is a true game based Midgardism.

Hmmm...  (scratching head)  Some of my biggest concerns have to do with game balance, and right now I can see both good and bad points on both sides.

For instance, if religions have one or more powers that are valuable (and relatively easy to acquire), then why would players prefer to play in the non-religious factions where they have no such powers?  Wouldn't the religions become bloated with clans looking for that edge in their play?

OTOH, if the powers are exceptionally difficult to obtain, then why should most clans be bothered with them at all?  Most people wouldn't want to put forth the extreme time and effort needed to reach such lofty levels and therefore the power might as well not be available (as far as most players are concerned).

I kinda think it'd be better to have a moderately-valuable power for each faction, and one that is easy to acquire when in that faction, and for all the factions to have both strengths and weaknesses.  Then players can choose factions based on what they think sounds like more fun rather than being able to "get more" out of one faction than another.

Does that make any kind of sense?

Well in the case of the Gift, from the beginning they would have the Construction/Building ability. Thus the reason they can run (4) Construction projects is because the LDR,F1,F2,F3 all have ENG-1 skill. Now as to the Healing, well if they want to obtain that special perk, they have to earn it in-game and that means they must do the hard work of training in factional skills and staying within character to get it. Now once they get that special perk, for in game purposes it dosn't add up to a lot, but in Roleplaying character purposes it is huge. Basically for those that want to roleplay it is a major success, but those that are not willing to truly roleplay in character it isn't important. Basically that means that the players are just be using their Gift clan as a construction only purposes and really don't care about the rest.

I think that healing needs to be an important facet of the game, and fairly easily available in moderation for most clans.  But I'm not convinced that it should be particularly powerful or widespread (such as all religions able to do thorough magical healing).  My current vision (subject to discussion, etc.) is that all men should heal naturally at a relatively slow rate, but that easily found "professional" assistance can speed that up noticeably.  One faction (I'm thinking) may particularly train their members in this sort of assistance which they can then provide to others when it suits their purposes (including for pay - the most common reason).  In addition, prepared medicinals (usually able to last a long time and taken on the road) may be sold on the market that anyone can buy and use themselves for an intermediate improvement in healing speed.

I think that the faction's temples in cities might be the best place to buy "treatment services" and perhaps an apothecary could be a civic building (possibly staffed by factional members) where such medicinals are prepared and sold to the public (including both the market and the city population).  (I'm thinking these could be somewhat like our Chinese herbalist shops.)

Does that follow along with anyone else's thoughts?

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137438' dateline='1579990809']
Let me point out a few facts...
[/quote]

BTW, you frequently state "facts" very flagrantly in your arguments, usually based on what I've said I'm NOT going to do.  But please keep in mind that (a) my initial intentions are not necessarily how things are going to work out, and (b) most of my comments are about the starting situation and say little about what we might be able to grow into with a little size and complexity. So I'd appreciate it if you could be a little less vehement about your pronouncements.

[quote='FutureSojourner' pid='137437' dateline='1579947934']
I prefer for the religions (and all factions) to have a logical explanation for their Factional perks that make sense ...
[/quote]

That's kinda what I was trying to do, is have things that make sense (to those that understand where it's coming from).

For instance, let's say that a given faction can "instill fear in all that see them."  Well, that's the popular perception anyway. But what's going on is that they like to "be evil" and treat people "evilly" (e.g. perhaps they torture people when they want cooperation, or just at random, for instance).  That gives them a popular reputation that they should be avoided at all costs and thus the notion of "instilling fear" is widely promoted (within and without of their faction) as their "power".  The fear is quite real, and has a good reason for existence, but that doesn't mean it needs to be magically caused, does it?

Or let's say that a faction is blessed with the ability to become "invisible".  Well, what about the popular notion of ninjas in our own history?  They reputedly had the ability to become effectively invisible by carefully blending in with their surroundings.  Could that sort of training and behavior not be worked up into something that's about as effective as true invisibility without having to resort to it being "magical"?

Special training could give one faction the ability for their infantry to fight better than others, or know how to build and use siege engines, or be experts in mounted warfare, or know what effect many kinds of plants have, or be able to blend in with their surroundings, or intentionally frighten people into submission?

Does this not sound like a reasonable way to approach things?

OK I will yield the point then...abandon the magical healing...

I would ask strongly to return the Healing ability to the Gift and if it is to be through real study and research then ok. Hera is what skills I think we have so far for the Gift skills:

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HRB - Herbalism
APH - Apothecary

Should there also be a 6th skill or SRG - Surgery These (3) skills would work together : HRB, APH, SRG

I could see a startup clan skill set as:

LDR: PRE-2, REC-1, ENG-1, HRB-1, APH-1, SRG-1
F1: ENG-1
F2: ENG-1
F3: ENG-1
What do you say on this? With each character having ENG-1, they can each run/manage a construction project. This then explains why a Gift clan can run (4) Construction projects without needing Engineers as well. This then leaves the LDR to be able to do both Priest ability, Healer, and Engineer. For roleplaying that does do a pretty good job what are your thoughts Davin?

I think that healing assistance (as opposed to instant magical healing) is a good idea and we can work something out.

Back when we were discussing what each faction would have or be able to do, we never got into combining some of the old abilities into fewer factions.  I think I'd recommend going back to those threads and trying to update everyone's opinion of what they ought to be.  I'm not trying to get rid of any specific special ability that used to be associated with one of the alternate factions, I'm just talking about condensing the important things into base factions so they can do more than one thing.  But we need a current summary of each faction and their features so that the players can discuss them specifically.

I believe my Gift clan will be so defined like the following as well as roleplay the following :

Clan Name: Illuminati
        Leader: Father Kalib (m)
Follower F1: Brother Joshua (m)
Follower F2: Brother Hermes (m)
Follower F3: Brother Aaron (m)

I might have my clan Leader Father Kalib pursue research in a new city building type called a Bath House. The Gift being Healers as well as Builders, are concerned with health and cleanliness. So through a network of pipes under the building they will bring in clean water into the building and remove waste. The Bath House will be a place where people can go  to socialize and do business as well as get clean. There will be many different services offered at the structure complex, and it will be for the better of  health and culture of the city. It will add to making the city a happier place to live.

That sounds quite reasonable. Does the Gift have any other purposes/abilities that should also be included, or is this sufficient to make it fun enough to play even when many other factional choices become available?

Does anyone have anything else to add or change, or a completely different vision to suggest?

Lets circle back to the skills for a second here...

The Gift most well known ability is "Construction" and this gives them the ability to be more effective in Construction Mancycles to be able to build things within the game. That is ok but I want to point out that hat the skill of ENG - Engineering is set up as a total catch all of no less than (4) skills to be able to do this.

Now I can say this because I firstly I grew up around my father's Construction Agency where he restored historic buildings.  I grew up around him and his men helping and watching them build buildings. After my military service, I went to college for a 5 year Professional BA in Architecture with (2) minors in Construction Engineering and the other minor in Computer Science. Funny how I in life followed my minor in Computer Science but still I have the background to speak on this matter.

So to build any building you have (3) specialities and they would be:

Architecture - Design of the structure of layout and cosmetics
Construction Engineering - Design of the actual support systems and structure so building can stand and be supported
Building - Actually the system to build the building together and actually physically build it

The combination of these three skills gives you ENG - Engineering which is the catch-all skill to give the Gift their Construction ability.

The 2nd  Focus for the Gift is Healing ability. The GM has said that to get Healing you have (3) Skills of : HRB - Herbalism, APH - Apothecary, and SRG - Surgery. To keep the skills in line that with the ENG- Engineering side, that the (3) skills of HRB - Herbalism, APH - Apothecary, and SRG - Surgery should be represented by the HEA - Healing skill. So the Gift skills would then be:

PRE- Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HEA - Healing

This would then allow the chance to also add some other skills to round out the Gift clans skills. I would add such skills as :

ADM - Administration
RES - Research
ENT - Entertainment

This would then give the Gift the following skill set:

PRE- Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HEA - Healing
ADM - Administration
RES - Research
ENT - Entertainment

So the skills setup for the clan might look like this:

 LDR: PRE-1, REC-1 ENG-1, HEA-1 ADM-1, RES-1, ENT-1
   F1: ENG-1
   F2: ENG-1
   F3: ENG-1

So for roleplaying aspects, all (4) characters can each support a Construction project of their own. Now the Leader being you main clan character can do all the rest. Now remember each character can have up to (10) skills each, but this skill setup would make a very effective and playable clan to play.

ENG, ADM, ENT are based in part off of mathematics in a way. The Gift to use RES skill for both ENG and HEA skills to develop things, even to work on ENT things like Gregorian Chants music and etc. The Gift become a very well rounded faction with this skills set.

[quote='Davin' pid='137254' dateline='1578071420']
I think that construction bonuses and architectural engineering would be pretty significant advantages just by themselves, especially together.
[/quote]

I like the idea of ALL Religion clans being able to learn healing; however, the Gift have always been about building and I would hate to see that replaced with a healing benefit.  I see the three main religions, who all worship the same God, focusing on different aspects of that God (The One True God).  

The Gift -- focus on Creation, the establishment of the material work.  Finding a connection with the OTG through the created world and making the majesty of the OTG manifest through building and construction -- seeing the OTG as "the Great Architect of Midgard."

The Ring -- focus on repentance through asceticism, prayer, contemplation and preserving the established order.  

The Banner - focus on evangelism and spreading the word of the OTG often by the sword.

All the religions should be somewhat adept at healing.  But the GIFT should excel at construction.  If that were taken away from the Gift I don't think I would ever want to play one!  

Oliver

The purpose of my last post was to point out that the ENG skill covers (3) skill areas and covered by one skill. Now the Healing skill I am saying should do the same. Just like ENG does, have HEA - Healing or MED - Medical could do the same.

Change the three skills that are covered for Healing ability, and convert it back to either Healing or Medical

I think making the skills cover a wide range of abilities, helps to limit the number of skills that there are in the game.

IMO, each faction should have a factional ability (such as construction bonuses for the Gift) and those should be directly coded into the program and should not rely on skills.  That isn't to say that the skills shouldn't also exist (for other clans to take), but that they (construction, for instance) won't benefit a Gift (for instance) clan in any substantial way, at least not at low levels.

IMO, I think that healing abilities should not be given free to any faction, and anyone should be able to take healing-type skills.  However, I expect some religion(s) to typically ask their members (including those from the general population) to take these and help provide personnel and (civic?) buildings that can offer services to the general public and clans.

I would further recommend that the different skills we've discussed be kept separate so that any person can specialize in just one of them at a time.  For instance, a clan may include a Surgeon whose job is to know everything they can learn about surgery, without having to learn how to run an apothecary, for instance.  If he's spending the time to get the most training he can, it should be in his specialty so he's the best he can be.

In a city there may be a building (or temple?) where people help with healing services, in which one or more specialize in surgery to help with physical emergencies and others who are specialist herbalists to help with ongoing care and recovery, in a building that provides good places for these activities to take place.  Other buildings may be apothecaries (run by those that know nothing about surgery), to help keep the city population healthy.

But all this doesn't keep just anyone from learning to be a healer (from novice to expert).

Doesn't that sound reasonable?

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137725' dateline='1581731250']
So to build any building you have (3) specialities and they would be:

Architecture - Design of the structure of layout and cosmetics
Construction Engineering - Design of the actual support systems and structure so building can stand and be supported
Building - Actually the system to build the building together and actually physically build it

The combination of these three skills gives you ENG - Engineering which is the catch-all skill to give the Gift their Construction ability.
[/quote]

Why is it necessary to combine these together?  I wouldn't expect a stonemason or a carpenter to know very much about architecture, and vice versa.  Why not have specialists in each field independently?  Then the training could be divided up among multiple people and effectiveness could be increased in parallel in a shorter time.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137725' dateline='1581731250']
ENG, ADM, ENT are based in part off of mathematics in a way. The Gift to use RES skill for both ENG and HEA skills to develop things, even to work on ENT things like Gregorian Chants music and etc. The Gift become a very well rounded faction with this skills set.
[/quote]

I don't much like putting too many eggs in one basket.  Nobody should be able to provide many different skills at once without a great deal of time and effort.  I don't think we've got any Leonardo da Vinci's running around Midgard.

[quote='FutureSojourner' pid='137727' dateline='1581776782']
The Gift -- focus on Creation, the establishment of the material work.  Finding a connection with the OTG through the created world and making the majesty of the OTG manifest through building and construction -- seeing the OTG as "the Great Architect of Midgard."

The Ring -- focus on repentance through asceticism, prayer, contemplation and preserving the established order.  

The Banner - focus on evangelism and spreading the word of the OTG often by the sword.
[/quote]

I don't see any problems with viewpoints like this.

[quote='TheDarkSide' pid='137743' dateline='1581817621']
I think making the skills cover a wide range of abilities, helps to limit the number of skills that there are in the game.
[/quote]

Why should we need to limit the number of skills in the game?  Typical peasants of our Middle Ages generally never got good at more than one thing in their lives, and it was usually of a very narrow scope (passed down through families or by apprenticeship).

Make a skill really mean something, and then only important ones will be available and most training (outside of clans) will be in a single skill.  (For instance, I don't expect astronomy to have an impact on daily life and nobody will know about it [except perhaps for some few priests trying to predict eclipses].  Some few may believe in astrology, but it may still not have much of a daily effect either.)

I don't expect many skills to have a game effect and we probably won't even bother with them.  For instance, some peasant women are taught to weave, and each probably has their own family patterns passed down.  But I can't see clans and cities bothering with that sort of thing.

Davin can you state for the record will the Gift have Construction and Healing ability or not? Please answer that clearly!

The Gift Skill list, will it be the following?

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
ENG - Engineering
HRB - Herbalism
APT - Apothocary
SRG - Surgery
RES - Research

Please clarify for us, public opinion has already spoken. What is your judgement of this so we can stop talking this to death and move on?

I think everyone agrees that they should have built-in construction abilities, regardless of expected skills.

I think that Healing should not be the exclusive province of a single faction.  They may prefer to provide such services, training, etc., but it shouldn't restrict it there.

(I haven't defined the list of skills yet, so I can't pick exactly from that list, and it wouldn't be enforceable anyway.)

Is that clear enough?

OK we await your list of skills...

So the Gift will be Construction and maybe these Healing skills (3) to provide some healing ability

As I mentioned before, that will take a considerable amount of time to plan. When I'm ready, we'll start with a list of everything we've looked at and begin modifying it from there.