Factional Redesigns

Started by Davin · Jan 2, 2020 03:10 UTC

#137216

I’d like to consider experimenting with the basic factional designs to improve them and see what might be able to be done.  To that end, I’d like to have some open discussions about what you all think and see if we might come up with some sort of consensus.  But to be most effective, this needs to have wide input from a dozen or more players rather than just the opinions of a few.  Do you think we might be able to get some good participation on this subject?

My main concerns on this subject as a GM are:

  1. I’d like to preserve game balance across the factions as a priority.  Every faction should be desirable in some way and no faction should overpower the others or be significantly under-powered by comparison.
  2. Since we’ll have relatively few players to begin with, we should start with as few factions as we can manage.  I’d like to see 20+ clans in every faction, and if we have only a few apiece then we’re spreading them too thinly.  We can add new factions as the player base increases enough to support them.
  3. The factions should be quite distinct from one another.  Each faction should have its own reasons for existence and desirability that are not shared with the other factions.  They should have interesting personalities each in their own right, so that playing in a different faction is somewhat like playing in a different game.
  4. These discussions should be from the point of view of an arbitrary player who is really interested in the faction, rather than oriented toward your own personal favorite faction.
  5. Please exclude from consideration:
    [list]
  6. Let’s consider the factional designs independent of “skills”.  If we end up with skills, they should be flavorful enhancements to play rather than part of the basic factional designs.
  7. Likewise, let’s not yet plan for factions that make use of other game facilities that I’m not expecting to have in play to begin with – let’s save those for later.  I’m thinking primarily of things like naval activities here.  I expect to add support for ships and such, but I think we need to add such things later once the “land” game is more established.
  8. I’d also like to avoid having factions in the “chaotic” arenas for the moment.  Bandits, Barbarians/Pirates, Heretics, etc. will be fun player choices in the future when we have room to expand into them, but for the time being let’s leave them as NPC opponents.  That’s not to say that (especially as Independents) you can’t go out and set up an anonymous roadblock or preach about some new religion, but let’s not try to formalize them as groups yet.

[*]Very importantly, each faction should be fun to play.  If a faction is not interesting or isn’t fun, then nobody will want to declare for them and it becomes dead weight to the game system.
[/list]
To define factions with those qualities, I’d like to come up with the following kinds of information for each of them:

  • Factional name (obviously).
  • The primary purpose for the faction to exist – what overall goal do they want to accomplish in the world?  For instance, their purpose might be trade, agriculture, military specialists, domination/control of Midgard, religious supremacy, brokering peace between factions, etc.
  • What distinguishing feature does this faction have, such as well-known defensive works, horse-based warriors, archery skills, construction expertise, etc.?
  • Possibly related to that, what specific in-game benefit can this faction have that no other faction has?  This might be the ability to influence markets, limited divination, perform military training, etc.  Remember that different faction’s abilities should be relatively balanced in power.
  • What makes this faction interesting and fun to play, beyond the specific benefits it provides?
  • And finally, what (usually mutual) factional enemies do they have and which others do they tend to cooperate with?

To begin with, I guess we should start by looking at the Imperials, the three base families, and the three base religions.  I’m expecting that if we have to eliminate any of those then players won’t consider it “Midgard” any more, will they?  But then again, I see no reason why we can’t make adjustments to the traditional definitions to make them more fun or more specialized in some area (as has been discussed elsewhere). If you describe any other factions, please tell me why they should be involved before the "base" factions are filled out with clans.

To keep these discussions focused, I recommend that you start a new thread here for each proposed factional definition and discuss only that faction in that thread.  We can keep this thread for cross-factional design comments, such as “what do we need to know for each faction” or “how do we maintain game balance between very different factions” or “which faction would best benefit from including fun option ‘X’ in it?”

Has anyone any thoughts on this process?

#137220

OK so we need (7) new threads that are like this:

Thread Title: Factional Redesigns <faction name><faction number>

Topics within the thread are as follows:

• Factional Name:

•The primary purpose for the faction to exist:

•What distinguishing feature does this faction have:

• What specific in-game benefit can this faction have:

•What makes this faction interesting and fun to play:

•What (usually mutual) factional enemies:

Edited Jan 2, 2020 05:36 UTC

#137228

I also feel that the (3) One True God religious factions of Banner, Gift, and Ring need someone to fight against. Now if we also added the Blood & Fire as well as the Cult of the Dark one we would have some religions to be enemies of each other.

Banner vs Blood & Fire & Cult of the Dark One

Ring vs Cult of the Dark One & Blood & Fire
Gift vs Cult of the Dark One & Blood & Fire

#137232

Good vs. Evil enemies are certainly good to have, but I don't know if we'll have enough early players to flesh out extra religions.

Cannot the three religions be, if not full enemies, at least in contention with one another and disagreeing on how the One True God tells them to behave?  For instance, are not the "convert or die" and "preservation of life" philosophies strongly averse to one another?

#137240

Remember there was both the Banner and the Orthodox Banner. The Orthodox Banner were 'Convert of Die' crew, while the Banner were not as bad. At least two of the former Banner seniors are here, hopefully they will comment.

#137243

Ok, let's settle on a design for one flavor of Banner then, and we'll see if we need an alternate form sometime in the future.

But I think my point was "do the Religions actually need special enemies", or will inter-religion contention suffice to produce some level of conflict?

#137244

The Gift and Ring never really fought amongst themselves, nor with the Banner. They all sat around the campfire and sang "Too-Ra-Loo-Ra-Loo-Ral"  or even better they sing "Kumbaya" with each other and just seem to go against the Blood & Fire and Serkenar (Moorlock factions).

The One True Goders Sing along

or the other Sing along

Edited Jan 3, 2020 03:13 UTC

#137245

Perhaps then they should have more of a competitive spirit, so they're not so much alike?  Even competitors can work together given a good reason (including the appearance of a "bad" religion), but otherwise competition can provide assorted stressors to overcome.

#137247

Have you looked at the factional descriptions for the Gift, Ring and Banner? They really are sects of the same religion. It is like getting a Minister from the; Lutheran, Methodis, and Quakers all in the same room and "talking" about what is the proper way to worship "god". Now adding a Blood & Fire is like adding a Muslim to the group and asking the same question again...LMAO!!! Then you end up with a argument.

#137249

I've read those descriptions (at least the version I've got) and they seem like they're more different than your examples, to me.  Lesse... would it sound more like a Jewish Rabbi, a Catholic Bishop, and a Baptist Minister?  Perhaps that's a little closer to my impression.  You think these guys could agree on much of anything beyond who "the One" was?

Anybody that doesn't worship the way you do is automatically a heretic, right?  And must be converted to "the right way"?  Even in the friendliest of discussions you're going to have loud arguments and conversion attempts, won't you?

Also, I don't see anywhere that it states that each religion's God is considered to be the exact same one.  We might logically assume that, but who says it has to be?

Even if they're the same God, if God tells us to do things that he wants done, and if he's telling each group to do a different thing, then he must be wanting something different somehow, and may in fact BE different, do you suppose?

(Well, you kinda asked for a philosophical argument, didn't you?)

#137311

I'm putting my comments here (driven from another thread) because they're more general in nature...

I would be happy to provide lots of alternatives to play, provided we have enough clans to play in them.  I started with the seven factions because that's the history everyone is used to, but I'm not opposed to killing off some of them and replacing them with new ideas, just so long as we're not running around with only a couple of clans in each faction.  But I was hoping that simply redefining the "standard" factions to have other abilities that you have come to know and love in the "extra" factions, might give players enough incentive to play them.  After all, if a faction's benefits are all the same then the only real difference is the factional name, isn't it?


For a (rather extreme) example, what if you changed the Boda to include the basic capabilities of the Merk Verk?  Would you then need a separate Merk Verk faction or would playing the Boda fill your desires for that sort of play?  What other combinations might be reasonable, where you get favorable abilities from different factions merged together into one (regardless of what its name is)?


As far as adding new factions later on, I think that would be quite reasonable if we have enough population in the game to support them.  In such a case, I'd be willing to relax the rules on changing factions if the players would rather switch to one of the new ones at around that time.  I have no interest in keeping people from having fun - that's what the game's all about!  Those kinds of restrictions are there to prevent abuse more than anything, and if you're not abusing the system then I'm happy to let you do many things that are technically "against the rules".


If we do start switching around though, I'd rather not end up with factions devoid of players.  If that's the case then the faction wasn't fun enough to play in the first place, and that's what I'm trying to avoid here with this "group redesign".  Let's make the factions fun from the beginning!  If a faction can't be made fun to play, then let's drop it now and start over by designing a different faction to replace it.


If we have to, we can rewrite the whole history and start completely over with the factions.  If you ALL wouldn't be upset by not having the Imperials, three Families, and three Religions, then I see no reason to keep that structure.  We could start over with maybe a half-dozen brand new factions to choose from.  I just figured that most people like seeing those available, even if they also have preferences elsewhere. Or, as mentioned before, we can merge things together and create more diverse factions.  What would happen, for instance, if we combined the Seekers with one of the religions giving the benefits and play-ability of both?


What sounds like a structure that everyone would enjoy?  Would you rather have two feuding families, one standard religion, the heretics, and a pure military group?  I'd rather not have a faction that everyone likes or that everyone hates - each should have its pros and cons, its friends and enemies.  If you need a religion like the B&F, then also give me a non-religious faction that they are willing to cooperate with (perhaps something similar to the SoA?).


Does that help explain what I'm trying to accomplish?  Not too many choices for the population, good game balance, some built-in friends and enemies to provide conflict and cooperation, and above all everything should be fun to play!

Edited Jan 9, 2020 02:47 UTC

#137318

Hmmm a total faction redesign...

Well if you took that approach with the game, I would stick with the Meteor Strike still and then say after the ruins some new factions started taking shape.

Have a couple of NPC only factions that are super Bad...

- - NPC  -Maybe a <Evil> Empire faction that is repressive and wants to Conquer and Conquest everyone, as it spreads it evil grasp across the lands...

- - NPC - A Pirate based Nasty Bad Arse faction that sails the seas and raids everyone...

- - NPC - A Bandit based faction that plagues everyone across the lands

- - NPC - Heretic Religion faction (based off of the old Gods)

- - PC House 1 <Name> Redesign the Boda

- - PC House 2 <Name> Redesign the Roder

- - PC House 3 <Name> Redesign the Getham

- - PC Religion Faith of One true God  <Name> (Redesign &Combine the Banner, Gift, Ring)

- - PC Religion Faith of Moorlock <Name> (redesign & Combine B&F, Searkanar, Cult)

- - PC Merc - Land Based <name>(Redesign and combine the Merc Verk and SOA)

- - PC Naval Merc -Naval Based <name>(Redesign Buccaneers, maybe use the Swashbucklers)

- - PC Faction of a different flavor <Name> (redsign an combine the Cymru &  Seekers)

That would give you a great mix of factions and Enemies and Allies to play with. It would also give you pure NPC factions to use as the games Bad Guys. That would give you (4) NPCs, and (8) PC factions to work with and fill out your game.

Edited Jan 9, 2020 05:17 UTC

#137319

OK lets just redesign the core factions and make them better and more complete!!!

#137320

That doesn't sound too bad in general.

The "evil empire" type sounds difficult to balance, as it would have to be powerful to do what it needs to, but it might be too powerful to combat easily.  And given that combination, why would not everyone else band together to get rid of them right off the bat?

The "naval merc" would need to be deferred until I have naval operations running, of course, and Pirates wouldn't have anyone to attack without PC ships in use.

I'm not sure I see what good an NPC "Heretic" would do for the design, but come up with something if you like and see what kind of balance we can work out.  (Or just wait until some future time when they "appear" to players in the game system.)

For your extra faction, are you thinking something along the lines of mystics and/or researchers of lost antiquity?

I'd like to see what you have in mind for combining the other types, as well.  And of course we'd like to get a number of folks contributing and providing a consensus for us to follow.  (Anybody know what kind of a quorum we might need?)

Don't forget to work out combinations of cooperation and with antipathy.

#137321

[quote=Davin]
That doesn't sound too bad in general.

*** You could name the something like T'Aleen Empire

The "evil empire" type sounds difficult to balance, as it would have to be powerful to do what it needs to, but it might be too powerful to combat easily.  And given that combination, why would not everyone else band together to get rid of them right off the bat?

*** You have stated that at game start, most cities will be small and mostly ruins, with almost no defences and very little for city structure. You could say that the T'Aleen Empire seems to been able to build up a couple of cities with some defences and some regiments. Realize having some forces and looking like your got the upper hand is always a good start.

As to all the factions banding together to fight them, that is possible but not very likely. Maybe over time, but they would keep spreading like the plague.

The "naval merc" would need to be deferred until I have naval operations running, of course, and Pirates wouldn't have anyone to attack without PC ships in use.

*** I understand that the Naval has to wait at this time, but Pirates can always rad coast lands and cities.

I'm not sure I see what good an NPC "Heretic" would do for the design, but come up with something if you like and see what kind of balance we can work out.  (Or just wait until some future time when they "appear" to players in the game system.)

 *** The Heretic or <Named Religious faction> would give the religious factions someone to hate and hunt and fight against, maybe the Blood & Fire.

For your extra faction, are you thinking something along the lines of mystics and/or researchers of lost antiquity?

*** At this point I am not sure, as I said maybe we just stick with the core 7 factions and just redesign them to be better.

I'd like to see what you have in mind for combining the other types, as well.  And of course we'd like to get a number of folks contributing and providing a consensus for us to follow.  (Anybody know what kind of a quorum we might need?)

Don't forget to work out combinations of cooperation and with antipathy.
[/quote]

Edited Jan 10, 2020 00:00 UTC