Faction #16 The Cult of the Dark One

Hello Midgard players,

I wanted to break the ice and start talking about different factions. I know that Davin is working on "the game mechanics" for the game, but we the players really can't talk about that very much. We simply are not doing the coding for the game mechanics, but what we can talk about are the factions and dig into details about them.  So first here is the last list of the factions that have been in the last couple of versions of the game:

The faction I would like to talk about in this thread is: Faction #16 - The Cult of the Dark One.

Now this had been a Non-Player (NPC) faction but a lot is known about it and was in the process of being worked on to open up as a Player based faction. So lets talk about them.

The Cult of the Dark One or Cult as it was normally know was based in Kalmar and Southern Midgard continents. The Cult #0 actually was the Founder #0 for Faction #32 The Cymru (player faction)and eventually stepped down with a new #0 standing in to take up that spot. Much was learned about the Cult and the faction was being flushed out to be played in the different versions of the game.

The Cult of the Dark One is basically a version of one of the Old Gods, specifically Moorlock. Now a lot of the work on this faction happened in Midgard USA version, but was changed slightly in the next version because the next version did not include either #10 The Serkeanar Religion or #32 The Cymru. A new faction #32 was stood up and put into play ,The Seekers (based in Kalmar and Southern Midgard). Through that interaction again more was learned and worked on through declared #17 Heretic clans that were trying to bring the Cult faction live. Being that we are in another new restart of this game, that is being redesigned it is our intent to help design this faction to eventually become a live player faction in the game. So below are our collective thoughts about the design of this faction, of what it might become in this version of the game. I know the GM Davin wants to start with the core factions, but this discussion can help to set those other factional discussions in motion.

I should also point out in the past under all the versions of Midgard, the standard to stand up a new faction was to have either a declared #19 Independent or #17 Heretic clan with a note to the GM that they were intending to declare for that new faction when it became live. Now you need to have (10) or more Players, and (20) or more Clans that are going to declare  to the new faction. They also must play in that status for (12) turns/cycles consecutively, once that is reached then the faction comes live. Before the clans do the declare and intend to start for the new faction, a lot of Special Actions has to happen to design the faction and find a #0 Senior founder NPC.

So with that said lets talk about this faction...

Faction #16 - The Cult of the Dark One:

One of the Old Gods...Moorlock, The God of Bringer of Forbidden Knowledge.

Druidical in Nature with close ties to natural setting, they also one with nature and skilled in Concealment/Ambush in nature. They focus on Bow weapon types and excel of raged stealth attacks from concealed locations to get a jump on their targets. City ownership is not really that import, having more Cult shrines is more import. Basically helping the people and spreading the teachings of the Dark One is more key. So they tend to be super Secretive, hidden in nature, not always understood, strike from the Shadows and from Ambush. They do care about helping the health of the people and their Medical knowledge is the key.

The factional perk is that they can Successfully Conceal themselves in nature with relates to giving them the ability to Ambush/Surprise someone. They are a foot based factional

Religious faction building: Shrines (Stonehenge like) -stone circles on a small hill with a stone alter, with a underground stone grottoes.

Shrines within a city bring a equal split in both Cult and Independent Influence to the city it is built for. Shrines increase a cities Health and act like a better Hospital for a city. Also since the Cult are archers, they increase the number of Bow Weapons; LM, MM types on a cities market. They also add HM to a cities market the numbers are based on the number of Cult Shrines a city has. Also the Cult shrines add to the % of LM and MM on the market added to the market depending on the number of armories in the city.

The factional skills are:

 PRE - Preach
 REC - Recruitment
 HRB - Herbalism
 APT - Apothecary
 SCT - Scouting
 STW - Streetwise
 

A new startup clan skill set up might be: (Standard is 10 skill levels in skills some assigned (8) and other picked(2) by the player):

LDR: PRE-1, REC-1, HRB-1, APT-1, STW-1, SPY-1
  F1: STW-1
  F2: STW-1
  F3: STW-1, SCT-1

Speaking on the whole skills issue, I understand that that whole scope is under plans for future review and design by Davin. Now under Zan and other GMs after him it was discovered that any Leader or Followers had a free flowing text field that if increased in the number of charters/size could have nay number of skills per character. Zan had redesigned it to allow for (10) skills per each character an each GM after him also agreed with that same redesign.

So with that being said a clan that wanted to follow this path would declare for the #17 Heretic faction and then choose (10) skill levels as following. I would also point out that you could only choose up to a level 2 in any skill. It should also be pointed out that a Level-2 skill , could teach a character to level-1 skill and would also gain some % for doing such action (+5%) per cycle/turn in teaching another(s). So if I were to do this I might choose the following setup:

declared Heretic <clan name>:
LDR: HRB-2, MED-1, SUR-1, SCT-1, PRE-1, REC-1
F1: MED-1
F2: MED-1
F3: MED-1

I would then spend (6) turns having the LDR train the F1,F2.F3 in HRB-1. Then for the next (6) turns I might have the LDR and F1,F2,F3 to train at the local Hospitals in the city they were located in +1 MED, you would need to use Special Actions to locate a trainer that could teach everyone in MED-2. So after (12) months your skill set might look like the following:

declared Heretic <clan name>:
LDR: HRB-2.30, MED-2, SUR-1, SCT-1, PRE-1, REC-1
F1: MED-2. HRB-1
F2: MED-2, HRB-1
F3: MED-2. HRB-1

Note: Over that (12) cycles I would also do a Preach Special Action each cycles and each time the character doing the Preach would also gain a +5% gain in their skill rating score too would be looking for a NPC to teach PRE-Preaching skill to the clan and that would be my next (6) Turns/Cycles instruction for all the characters. So the skill set might look like this after (18) Turns/Cycles, I would most like also use both my PRE-1 and REC-1 to Recruit for new Retainers for the clan and Converts to the Faith as well. That might also give the same +5% bump increase for (18) Turns/Cycles to REC- Recruitment skill:

declared Heretic <clan name>:
LDR: HRB-2.30, MED-2, SUR-1, SCT-1, PRE-2.90, REC-1.90
F1: MED-2. HRB-1, PRE-1
F2: MED-2, HRB-1, PRE-1
F3: MED-2. HRB-1, PRE-1

Most likely I would spend the next (2) cycles/turns to get +10% for PRE-3 and REC-2

declared Heretic <clan name>:
LDR: HRB-2.30, MED-2, SUR-1, SCT-1, PRE-3, REC-2
F1: MED-2. HRB-1, PRE-1
F2: MED-2, HRB-1, PRE-1
F3: MED-2. HRB-1, PRE-1

That is the basics for the skills, and a SA each turn on working on relations and ingame work on the new faction. It is a long process but it can be fun. This clan would work on improving a city and adding Shrines to the city for the Faith.

In one of the versions of the game, I played a declared Heretic clan #17, and roleplayed via Special Actions to join the Cult #16. We had just finished our time (12 Cycles) to bring the faction live and declared as a Cult clan. Remember to accomplish this, we needed 10+ players (I believe we had 12 players) and had to have 20+ clans (we had more than that number, might have been 25+ clans). I was not considering being a senior within the faction as I was also enjoying just playing my other clans within other factions as well too.

The factional skills are:
PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
HRB - Herbalism
APT - Apothecary
SCT - Scouting
STW - Streetwise
SPY - Spying

A new startup clan skill set up might be: (Standard is 10 skill levels in skills some assigned (8) and other picked(2) by the player):

LDR: PRE-1, REC-1, HRB-1, APT-1, STW-1, SPY-1
F1: STW-1
F2: STW-1
F3: STW-1, SCT-1

I should point out that if the Gift get back their Healing ability covered under the Gift Redesign thread, then the Cult will need to be redesigned again.

I would make the Cult the Keepers of Hidden Knowledge and Secrets. They are part of the shadows and use the dark  to help control the people  with fear and unknown. They are watchers and use the darkness to control the world. It is said that they practice human sacrifice, but no one really knows for sure because they are the true keeps of secrets.

Their skills then might be:

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
STW - Streetwise
TRK - Tracking
SPY-  Spying
ASN - Assassin
TOR - Torture

Benefits:
1) Maybe they have the Benefit or Bonus perk of Ambush. This would make them Shadows in the Dark and extremely dangerous. Fear would make people do what is asked of them, or else be killed. Remember this faction is called: The Cult of the Dark One. This faction wouldn't be combat army types, but within a city they would be feared being in every shadow. They also practice bloodied sacrifice for their rituals. This makes them the perfect evil villian.
2)They might also have a second benefit of being able to be be hidden within a city, thus not being located or seen on a scouting report within a city, if the clan's size is less than 20% of what the cities population actually is. zExample 20,000 pop city, would mean if the Cult cla is less than 2,000 retainers they would remain hidden to anyone.

Now the Cult is starting to turn into a great roleplaying faction, and cult serves as the perfect bad guy for may if not all of the three-game religions. One could have fun playing those guys in the game very much, might be even more fun than playing a Bandit.

I believe this is a Good redesign for the Cult of the Dark One....

NOTE: If the Gift get back their Healing ability covered under the Gift Redesign thread, then the Cult will need to be redesigned again.

I would make the Cult the Keepers of Hidden Knowledge and Secrets. They are part of the shadows and use the dark  to help control the people  with fear and unknown. They are watchers and use the darkness to control the world. It is said that they practice human sacrifice, but no one really knows for sure because they are the true keepers of secrets.

Cult Skill-set could be:

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
STW - Streetwise
TRK - Tracking
SPY-  Spying
ASN - Assassin
TOR - Torture

Cult Benefits:

1) Maybe they have the Benefit or Bonus perk of Ambush. This would make them Shadows in the Dark and extremely dangerous. Fear would make people do what is asked of them, or else be killed. Remember this faction is called: The Cult of the Dark One. This faction wouldn't be combat army types, but within a city they would be feared being in every shadow. They also practice bloodied sacrifice for their rituals. This makes them the perfect evil villains.
2)They might also have a second benefit of being able to be be hidden within a city, thus not being located or seen on a scouting report within a city, if the clan's size is less than 20% of what the cities population actually is. Example 20,000 pop city, would mean if the Cult clan is less than 2,000 retainers they would remain hidden to anyone.

A perfect theme song for the Cult - from Black Sabbath - Born Again

Market Item(s) to be added to a market  with different levels of temples:

(11) Cult Temples:
- Opium (drug with many uses)
(21) Cult Temples:
- Poisons
(30) Cult Cathedral:
- <special Item, Unknown as a secret>

Another great Theme song for the Cult

Roleplaying note: The Cult is set up here as the perfect EVIL faction hands down, they are IMO even darker and more sinister than the Blood & Fire.  These guys are not to be played with and are a very serious Villain, and are not to be trifled with at all.  These are truly Dark Souls and are Mega Evil. If you plan to play in this faction, put on your 'Big Boy pants' and get ready for the ride of your life!!!

I was kinda hoping that the really evil factions would be restricted to NPCs, at least early on.  Do you think we really need true evil player factions?

I remember in the early days of D&D players weren't ever permitted to play evil alignments, and for some good reasons.  Later, this was less restrictive, but I've never seen an evil player party work out very well in D&D.

Well you are right on there, but one does need to have the 'Dark Side' to give it a true feel of 'Fun'.

To me this would be a perfect Bad Guy faction that if you liked could make for a Real Bad Arse NPC faction if you liked, with some real 'Dark Color'. Just think of the fun you could have with this one! :angel:

The "Dark Side" works perfectly well as an NPC opponent, IMO.  There may be many different flavors of Good, but they all oppose Evil, right?

LOL...very true...I wanted to make them different than the Blood & Fire. To me the B&F are more of a stand up army fighter, where the Cult is a strike from the dark side kinda of faction. Both are evil, it is just the flavor of Evil that is different. Heck the Barbarian's might even be scared of the Cult.

So Davin to make it clear, your saying that the Cult of the Dark One is locked down as a NPC at game start. I am asking as I have a player that would like to play at least One Cult clan. I ask about this clarification, because it is THAT player that helped me come up with this latest vision of the faction.

I'd need to be convinced that a player should be allowed to play in an "evil" faction.  I'm not saying we won't do it, but just that I'm not in favor of it and need to be convinced of the game need.

Well it would make a clear enemy of the OTGers, just like the B&F whom are also a "Evil" faction do also do it as well. It is just a different point of view, honestly.

It also would be a different side of the coin, and would add a lot more color to the game giving other players many more options in which to roleplay. it would add strife and chaos into the game and would make players look over their shoulders and stop taking things for granted.

Let me hit you with this comparison with D&D...  If we have assorted pockets of evil/bad beasties in D&D that players need to contend with, they need to be able to wipe out (or otherwise dispose of) these little bands without dying out themselves, otherwise there wouldn't be any fun in playing for an adventure or two before dying.  Consequently, parties are traditionally more powerful (in one way or another) than the enemies they take on.  If a player decided to play a family of Bugbears (for instance), behaving as Bugbears behave, how long will it be before another party of adventurers comes along to (successfully) kill them and rid the area of their disruptions?

Likewise, let's say there's a group of Bandits (or similar) harassing trade near a city.  The city wants them gone and arranges for one or more clans (PC or NPC) to go get rid of them.  How long is that group going to last?  And if you're actually a player playing that group, how long will you live?  Isn't that going to be really anti-fun?

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137629' dateline='1581221755']
Well it would make a clear enemy of the OTGers, just like the B&F whom are also a "Evil" faction do also do it as well.  It is just a different point of view, honestly.
[/quote]

But the OTGers will have plenty of religious-based enemies, just not humans.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137630' dateline='1581221990']
It also would be a different side of the coin, and would add a lot more color to the game giving other players many more options in which to roleplay. it would add strife and chaos into the game and would make players look over their shoulders and stop taking things for granted.
[/quote]

Granted, it would be more interesting in some ways.  But it will also be more deadly and I don't think there's going to be much interest in signing up to die before getting to play for very long.

FWIW, there's no reason why any clan (especially an Independent) can't run around doing things against the law (such as setting up roadblocks to demand tribute).  But they shouldn't plan on "making a living" entirely from that.  They would soon become too much of a nuisance to the "law-abiding" population and everyone else in the area will be hired or convinced to gang up on them and take them out.

[quote=Davin]
I was kinda hoping that the really evil factions would be restricted to NPCs, at least early on.  Do you think we really need true evil player factions?

I remember in the early days of D&D players weren't ever permitted to play evil alignments, and for some good reasons.  Later, this was less restrictive, but I've never seen an evil player party work out very well in D&D.
[/quote]

I believe the feeling is that it is just 'perspective'. The Cult would add a real fear aspect into the game as players would not know if they were being 'watched' or not. Now I am just speaking out for this player 'TheDarkSide', whom just created his account today. You know the way this boards Admins work, he will be lucky if his account becomes active in 2.5 weeks plus. Just like 'Bonecrusher' sits in Limbo, awaiting his Activation Email to show up as well too!

Maybe what you do Davin is let the player play a Beta-Test Cult declared clan and see what happens. Maybe you will see how the Boogie-Men can be played in the game to scare the pants off of others in the game. Fear does make for a rather good plot line at times. Give the player a chance to give it a try and see what developes. Maybe he might surprise you.

So what will the fate of both the Blood & Fire, and Serkeanar? Will they also be locked down as NPC's as well too?

[quote=Davin]
Let me hit you with this comparison with D&D...  If we have assorted pockets of evil/bad beasties in D&D that players need to contend with, they need to be able to wipe out (or otherwise dispose of) these little bands without dying out themselves, otherwise there wouldn't be any fun in playing for an adventure or two before dying.  Consequently, parties are traditionally more powerful (in one way or another) than the enemies they take on.  If a player decided to play a family of Bugbears (for instance), behaving as Bugbears behave, how long will it be before another party of adventurers comes along to (successfully) kill them and rid the area of their disruptions?

Likewise, let's say there's a group of Bandits (or similar) harassing trade near a city.  The city wants them gone and arranges for one or more clans (PC or NPC) to go get rid of them.  How long is that group going to last?  And if you're actually a player playing that group, how long will you live?  Isn't that going to be really anti-fun?
[/quote]

This I think sums it up …The Answer to Davin's question:

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137629' dateline='1581221755']
Well it would make a clear enemy of the OTGers, just like the B&F whom are also a "Evil" faction do also do it as well.  It is just a different point of view, honestly.
[/quote]

The "fun" in laying a Cult of the Dark One would be in devious manipulation.  Perhaps have all Dark One clans listed as "Independent," or as a Family/Imperial clan that secretely declares for the Dark One and holds dual affiliation.  Have all Dark One temples as underground dwellings not seen on a City Report.  There are things that you can do to make it fun... but it would require some creativity and should be reserved for experienced players.  I wouldn't let new players start out as Dark One -- make it an "unlock" or something similar.

[quote=FutureSojourner]
[quote=DreamWeaver]
Well it would make a clear enemy of the OTGers, just like the B&F whom are also a "Evil" faction do also do it as well.  It is just a different point of view, honestly.
[/quote]

The "fun" in playing a Cult of the Dark One would be in devious manipulation.  Perhaps have all Dark One clans listed as "Independent," or as a Family/Imperial clan that secretely declares for the Dark One and holds dual affiliation.  Have all Dark One temples as underground dwellings not seen on a City Report.  There are things that you can do to make it fun... but it would require some creativity and should be reserved for experienced players.  I wouldn't let new players start out as Dark One -- make it an "unlock" or something similar.
[/quote]

I like the idea of having them show up as a "Independent" clan, that would make them hard t find, almost like Bandits. I do think you will find that it could be any player that could play them, not just older players. It is just the creative players that should play them. Also the idea of the Cult temple/shrine is a great concept as being "Hidden" and extremely hard to find. Maybe it is considered to be a "secret' shrine and hidden well in the city. It fits with their style and theme.Maybe even make a note on the back of the CVR that: "There are rumors that there is a Hidden Cult Shrine within the city", and not list it on the front of the CVR at all.

Ok having them show up as "Independent" clans on scouting reports would I think work extremely effective, and this would counter one of Davin's fears that everyone would hunt them down.  so the benefits could be rewritten to be:

Benefits:
1)The Cult can Ambush other clans. This would make them Shadows in the Dark and extremely dangerous. Fear would make people do what is asked of them, or else be killed. Remember this faction is called: The Cult of the Dark One. This faction wouldn't be combat army types, but within a city, they would be feared to be in every shadow. 
2)They would appear as an Independent clan when encountered on a scouting report.
3) Within a city they could appear hidden, thus not being located or seen on a scouting report within a city, if the clan's size is less than 20% of what the city population actually is. Example 20,000 pop city, would mean if the Cult clan is less than 2,000 retainers they would remain hidden to anyone coming to the city and not know that they are even within the city.

I also feel that a Cult Shrine would be hidden within any city it is built within. I like the note on the back of the CVR, of "Rumor is said that there is a Hidden Cult Shrine within the city". This all words to add a sense of mystery and intrigue to the whole faction and character that fits with the faction.

Some pics...

The Dark One...

A Cult Clan Assassin...

A Cult clan Leader...

A Cult Secret Shrine, hidden...

I would make the Cult the Keepers of Hidden Knowledge and Secrets. They are part of the shadows and use the dark  to help control the people  with fear and unknown. They are watchers and use the darkness to control the world. It is said that they practice human sacrifice, but no one really knows for sure because they are the true keeps of secrets.

Their skills then might be:

PRE - Preach
REC - Recruitment
STW - Streetwise
TRK - Tracking
SPY-  Spying
ASN - Assassin
TOR - Torture

Benefits:

1)The Cult can Ambush other clans. This would make them Shadows in the Dark and
extremely dangerous. Fear would make people do what is asked of them, or else be
killed. Remember this faction is called: The Cult of the Dark One. This faction
wouldn't be combat army types, but within a city, they would be feared to be in
every shadow.

2)They would appear as an Independent clan when encountered on a scouting report.

3) Within a city they could appear hidden, thus not being located or seen on a scouting
report within a city, if the clan's size is less than 20% of what the city population
actually is. Example 20,000 pop city, would mean if the Cult clan is less than 2,000 retainers
they would remain hidden to anyone coming to the city and not know that they are even
within the city.

Note:
I also feel that a Cult Shrine would be hidden within any city it is built within. I like
the note on the back of the CVR, of "Rumor is said that there is a Hidden Cult Shrine
within the city". This all words to add a sense of mystery and intrigue to the whole
faction and character that fits with the faction.

Greetings my fellow gamers.

I see that the divine reverence of the Dark One has shined upon myself. After two days, he has seen to it that I can now post on this forum. For all you OTG believers, if you worshiped a real God it would not have taken so long to get fully confirmed for this forum like one of the true believers!

I would like to thank 'DreamWeaver' for putting forward my ideas on the Cult of the Dark One faction.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137636' dateline='1581222755']
I believe the feeling is that it is just 'perspective'. The Cult would add a real fear aspect into the game as players would not know if they were being 'watched' or not.
[/quote]

Can that fear aspect not be provided by NPC Cult/B&F/etc clans running around providing the "good" players incentive to go after them?

Hmmm... I think more stress and fear could be done by active players as well. I mean as a GM you are not willing to go as far as us active players would try to take things, plus if something really horrible happens then you can blame it on those nasty Evil Cult players.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137636' dateline='1581222755']
Maybe what you do Davin is let the player play a Beta-Test Cult declared clan and see what happens. Maybe you will see how the Boogie-Men can be played in the game to scare the pants off of others in the game. Fear does make for a rather good plot line at times. Give the player a chance to give it a try and see what developes. Maybe he might surprise you.
[/quote]

That's a possibility, but I still worry about him causing such a nuisance that he gets targeted and wiped out and can't have any fun that way.  (I don't worry about him becoming a target, just that he won't have any fun playing.)  The only situation that I can see evil clans maintaining an active presence in the game is if the faction is its own organized big-box empire with built-in perks like the ones we're discussing taking away from the Imperials because it is unbalancing.  Picture the Thulsa Doom Snake Cult from the old Conan movie, for example.

I'm expecting to have some of the evil (NPC) factions build themselves defensible temples and the like to give them a base from which to operate and a target for the players to deal with, but not that major and not game-unbalancing from the other players' perspectives.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137638' dateline='1581223801']
[quote='Davin']
Let me hit you with this comparison with D&D...  If we have assorted pockets of evil/bad beasties in D&D that players need to contend with, they need to be able to wipe out (or otherwise dispose of) these little bands without dying out themselves, otherwise there wouldn't be any fun in playing for an adventure or two before dying.  Consequently, parties are traditionally more powerful (in one way or another) than the enemies they take on.  If a player decided to play a family of Bugbears (for instance), behaving as Bugbears behave, how long will it be before another party of adventurers comes along to (successfully) kill them and rid the area of their disruptions?

Likewise, let's say there's a group of Bandits (or similar) harassing trade near a city.  The city wants them gone and arranges for one or more clans (PC or NPC) to go get rid of them.  How long is that group going to last?  And if you're actually a player playing that group, how long will you live?  Isn't that going to be really anti-fun?
[/quote]

This I think sums it up …The Answer to Davin's question:
[/quote]

I don't have problems with clans dying.  I just want them able to play long enough to enjoy it.

Ahhh if you make them appear as Independent to others on Scouting reports, and allowing them to hide in cities altogether I think I could have a great time as a Cult player. Plus the Ambush bonus would be great as well too. Just think of the Chaios that could be had with that, I think by best buddies the Bandits, Pirates, and SOA would be awesome allies.

[quote='FutureSojourner' pid='137641' dateline='1581249179']
The "fun" in laying a Cult of the Dark One would be in devious manipulation.  Perhaps have all Dark One clans listed as "Independent," or as a Family/Imperial clan that secretely declares for the Dark One and holds dual affiliation.  Have all Dark One temples as underground dwellings not seen on a City Report.  There are things that you can do to make it fun... but it would require some creativity and should be reserved for experienced players.  I wouldn't let new players start out as Dark One -- make it an "unlock" or something similar.
[/quote]

Deviousness -- that's more like what I'd prefer to see.  An Independent can behave any way he wants to, including setting up his own underground organization that supports the "bad guys".  Perhaps it's the "openness" or "obviousness" or "organization" of the formal method that bothers me??  Perhaps they might create a hidden section of the "thieves guild" in the city and run it like a clan-sized faction?

I think it's quite possible for a declared clan to act against his faction's interests, stealing (and other such contraindicated activities) "under the radar", but that's up to the seniors to catch and punish (and they're liable to get wind of it eventually, such noticing that you're not progressing in factional influence or performing factional tasks).

[quote='Dark Shadows' pid='137644' dateline='1581300639']
Ok having them show up as "Independent" clans on scouting reports would I think work extremely effective, and this would counter one of Davin's fears that everyone would hunt them down.  so the benefits could be rewritten to be:

Benefits:
1)The Cult can Ambush other clans. This would make them Shadows in the Dark and extremely dangerous. Fear would make people do what is asked of them, or else be killed. Remember this faction is called: The Cult of the Dark One. This faction wouldn't be combat army types, but within a city, they would be feared to be in every shadow. 
2)They would appear as an Independent clan when encountered on a scouting report.
3) Within a city they could appear hidden, thus not being located or seen on a scouting report within a city, if the clan's size is less than 20% of what the city population actually is. Example 20,000 pop city, would mean if the Cult clan is less than 2,000 retainers they would remain hidden to anyone coming to the city and not know that they are even within the city.

I also feel that a Cult Shrine would be hidden within any city it is built within. I like the note on the back of the CVR, of "Rumor is said that there is a Hidden Cult Shrine within the city". This all words to add a sense of mystery and intrigue to the whole faction and character that fits with the faction.
[/quote]

Or what if the Cult was a hidden organized faction, but remained NPC, and Independent players could just work their way into the Cult's good graces (role-playing opportunities here) and do "jobs" for them?  In that way they could support one or more "evil" factions without actually being members.

Somewhere in the reports (I forget where) we designed a section for rumors to show up, which would be a fine place for this kind of information.

[quote='TheDarkSide' pid='137659' dateline='1581358808']
Ahhh if you make them appear as Independent to others on Scouting reports, and allowing them to hide in cities altogether I think I could have a great time as a Cult player.  Plus the Ambush bonus would be great as well too. Just think of the Chaios that could be had with that, I think by best buddies the Bandits, Pirates, and SOA would be awesome allies.
[/quote]

If they really are Independent (as I suggested) then they could promote that faction at the same time as Bandits/SOA/etc without having actually declared for any of them.  They'd better play well to not get caught, though.

Also, my thought is that anyone should be able to Ambush, if they thought they could get away with it.  We might work out conditional bonuses for it, though.

When "working for" a hidden group, you might help by providing "assistants" to take care of errands for them.  Perhaps they might need an obstinate storekeeper to be strong-armed into cooperation, or a message to be passed that a civilian better perform a task for them "or else", etc.  There's any number of underhanded things that a player interested in such factions could perform.

[quote=Davin]
[quote=Dark Shadows]
Ok having them show up as "Independent" clans on scouting reports would I think work extremely effective, and this would counter one of Davin's fears that everyone would hunt them down.  so the benefits could be rewritten to be:

Benefits:
1)The Cult can Ambush other clans. This would make them Shadows in the Dark and extremely dangerous. Fear would make people do what is asked of them, or else be killed. Remember this faction is called: The Cult of the Dark One. This faction wouldn't be combat army types, but within a city, they would be feared to be in every shadow. 
2)They would appear as an Independent clan when encountered on a scouting report.
3) Within a city they could appear hidden, thus not being located or seen on a scouting report within a city, if the clan's size is less than 20% of what the city population actually is. Example 20,000 pop city, would mean if the Cult clan is less than 2,000 retainers they would remain hidden to anyone coming to the city and not know that they are even within the city.

I also feel that a Cult Shrine would be hidden within any city it is built within. I like the note on the back of the CVR, of "Rumor is said that there is a Hidden Cult Shrine within the city". This all words to add a sense of mystery and intrigue to the whole faction and character that fits with the faction.
[/quote]

Or what if the Cult was a hidden organized faction, but remained NPC, and Independent players could just work their way into the Cult's good graces (role-playing opportunities here) and do "jobs" for them?  In that way they could support one or more "evil" factions without actually being members.

Somewhere in the reports (I forget where) we designed a section for rumors to show up, which would be a fine place for this kind of information.
[/quote]

Davin, call me slow because why would anyone want to remain as a "Independent"? You can't gain rank and you get like 200/400 Independent Influence a turn. So what, what is the point in remaining "Independent"? I just don't see the value, you have no support and no backing at all. Why bother?  The reason why rank is important, lets say you have a ORA - Oratory skill, and the higher you rank is the more effective your ORATORY (Political not Religious PRE-Preach) effectiveness will be.
I think you could play a effective Cult clan and have a lot of fun at it. The Cult requires a character that really want to roleplay and play a rather challenging  faction, but if you give them all the perks we have defined they would be able to successfully be able to play this type of challenge quite well.

Well, that's a good question.  Lets ignore influence for now (as I have some thoughts to discuss about that in the future) and look at your rank complaint.  First off, weren't you previously telling me that rank didn't really mean anything (unless you were a senior)?

If instead of rank affecting skills why not just have your skill level affect your effectiveness?  If we do that (or something similar), then of what use would your rank actually be?  Do you NEED to be increasing in rank if you're not trying to progress politically toward senior positions?  What do we want to do with it?

Pic

As I understand it I thought a Clans Rank in most cases had nothing to do with most skills except like Preach or Oratory. Now in those cases, a higher-ranked clan would be more effective than a lower-ranked clan. Most skill, however, had nothing to do with a clan's rank in a faction. Also wasn't there something to do with a clan's renown too. I am not the best one to talk on these matters, others whom have far more knowledge on this I hope will dig into this matter.

Most likely this will change when Davin recodes the game. A clan's Rank and Renown did have effects on different matters, but that now may be set up differently by Davin as the new code is worked out within this new recoded version of Midgard.

Who knows, even Davin might not be 100% sure yet until the code is fully worked out yet.

You know if the Guild clans become an option, I could run a Guild clan instead of a Gift clan. Then I could run a Cult clan as well too. I will not have both a Gift clan and Cult clan as cousins.

You know since the Guilds have a city building of Engineering Building, maybe they get a special bonus in Construction projects for mancycles like 2x times all retainers regardless of what unit they are in if the whole clan is in CNS Mode. I know that any clan gets 2x mancycles for the number of retainers they have within Unit $0 the Baggage Train. So what if a Guild clans get 2x mancycles for all retainers when the clan is in CNS Mode regardless. It is no way as great as the Gift bonus, and they still have the issue of only doing one Construction project at a time too.

[quote='DreamWeaver' pid='137721' dateline='1581707241']
Who knows, even Davin might not be 100% sure yet until the code is fully worked out yet.
[/quote]

:D Davin's not 100% sure about much of anything, yet!

The Cult would be a great faction to play, but Davin if you feel that it would server you better as a NPC faction then simply call it as such and lets move on Davin.

Sorry to say this but my father was a man of colorful phrases. being and Ex-US Navy CB's Commander.., one of his favorites phrases was "Shit or get off the pot, stop making the rest of us weight" It really needs for you Davin to make a decision so we the (6) players that actually care to contribute here on this forum to help you talk out many different points. We all don't always agree but we are trying to talk through these points but we keep talking in circles because I think your over thinking these things at times and want more people to contribute and well what you have is what you get. We are here because we care and want to see the game return. We are giving up our time to comment to help out, but if you would just make a decision on some matters that would help to guide us along. I mean this in total respect for you and your leadership, but it would help us out more for you to start making choices on matters like which factions are going to be Open for Players to play in.

See my other note on organized vs. disorganized factions.