StarMaster

Well, enough people seem to be mentioning the Grand Ol' Game, I thought it deserved its own thread.

Originally designed by Richard Allan Lloyd as a science-fiction version of Tribes of Crane, StarMaster was originally run by Schubel & Sons, eventually being bought back by the designer, who started a new company, KSK Concepts, to run it.

StarMaster was a turn-based, human moderated game. Each player started with a race (which the player designed, picking parts and attributes from a list, with each race getting 300 "bio points") and a homeworld. There were three different technology types (cold, heat, and chemical), which determined the sorts of weapons and other technology the race had.

Key to the game was technological advancement. Each "generation" of technology allowed the weapons and other systems of a player's ships to be ten times as powerful as the previous generation. This was accomplished by turning in economic vouchers, which were in turn generated through trade. Eventually, these economic vouchers (photocopied on goldenrod paper, and punched through with a spaceship-shaped punch to foil counterfeiting) were simply traded or gifted from older and more advanced races to new races, allowing them to rise in generation very swiftly.

The map was three-dimensional, with several different galaxies, such as the Central, Northeast, and Sixth Lower.

Turn sheets allowed players to move up to 6 fleets. Additional turn sheets could be purchased and included with a player's turn. Rumor has it that certain empires' turns ended up costing hundreds of dollars each. There were also Special Action sheets that allowed players to do things not covered by the ordinary rules, such as exploration of ruins, setting up special research projects, etc.

There was a background set up for the game, with the older races having dizzying levels of technology, but relatively small empires. The Eastern (communist) galaxy was in the process of invading the Central, as was the Northern galaxy (ruled by amoeboid races).

The game was eventually acquired by the original designer, who ran it through a company called KSK Concepts (named for a character from the background of the original game, Khan Sigma Khan). It was converted from a wholly human-run game to a computer-assisted game, and was run for several years.

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']Originally designed by Richard Allan Lloyd as a science-fiction version of Tribes of Crane, StarMaster was originally run by Schubel & Sons, eventually being bought back by the designer, who started a new company, KSK Concepts, to run it.[/quote]

And do you know if Richard Allan Lloyd is still with us, all these many years later?

Also, if you know, how long was StarMaster run by Schubel & Son, and how long was it run by Richard Allan Lloyd?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']StarMaster was a turn-based, human moderated game. Each player started with a race (which the player designed, picking parts and attributes from a list, with each race getting 300 "bio points") and a homeworld.[/quote]

Can you give us a few examples of what you mean by "bio points," as they were utilized in StarMaster?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']There were three different technology types (cold, heat, and chemical), which determined the sorts of weapons and other technology the race had.[/quote]

Do you recall what the 5reasoning was for those three technology types?

Also, when you say "other technology," do you recall what all that encompassed?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']Key to the game was technological advancement. Each "generation" of technology allowed the weapons and other systems of a player's ships to be ten times as powerful as the previous generation. This was accomplished by turning in economic vouchers, which were in turn generated through trade. Eventually, these economic vouchers (photocopied on goldenrod paper, and punched through with a spaceship-shaped punch to foil counterfeiting) were simply traded or gifted from older and more advanced races to new races, allowing them to rise in generation very swiftly.[/quote]

Does this mean that players received one of these goldenrod paper economic vouchers with each set of turn results?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']The map was three-dimensional, with several different galaxies, such as the Central, Northeast, and Sixth Lower.[/quote]

How many stars or planets were in each galaxy? How many galaxies were there?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']Turn sheets allowed players to move up to 6 fleets. Additional turn sheets could be purchased and included with a player's turn. Rumor has it that certain empires' turns ended up costing hundreds of dollars each. There were also Special Action sheets that allowed players to do things not covered by the ordinary rules, such as exploration of ruins, setting up special research projects, etc.[/quote]

Was there a limit to how many fleets could be moved, and how many special actions could be done, in a given turn?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']There was a background set up for the game, with the older races having dizzying levels of technology, but relatively small empires. The Eastern (communist) galaxy was in the process of invading the Central, as was the Northern galaxy (ruled by amoeboid races).[/quote]

Were all of the empires in the Eastern galaxy Communist empires? Was it designed that way, or did players come up with the Communist theme, by themselves?

[quote='Greyhawk Grognard' pid='441' dateline='1301019160']The game was eventually acquired by the original designer, who ran it through a company called KSK Concepts (named for a character from the background of the original game, Khan Sigma Khan). It was converted from a wholly human-run game to a computer-assisted game, and was run for several years.[/quote]

So, what happened to the game, after it was acquired by its original designer, Richard Allan Lloyd? Was it a better game, after it transitioned to computer assisted, compared to when it was hand-moderated?

:D How sweet it was and is. I still have all of the SM materials that I used back in the 1970's to include the original S&sons book.

I can remember it taking a long time to play, as I started playing in Germany in the 70's. Boy, was the mail slow then.

I take it out and enjoy reading the stuff all over again. I may be the only one to still have all of the original stuff that was sent during play.

Tom

I would play Starmaster if I had the chance. The game is gone for ever....
Have fun reading your old pbm turns!

[quote='Tom Thomas' pid='1185' dateline='1308981685']
:D How sweet it was and is. I still have all of the SM materials that I used back in the 1970's to include the original S&sons book.

I can remember it taking a long time to play, as I started playing in Germany in the 70's. Boy, was the mail slow then.

I take it out and enjoy reading the stuff all over again. I may be the only one to still have all of the original stuff that was sent during play.

Tom
[/quote]

Can you scan some of it, Tom?

Grim

What you want me to Scan, misc batch of stuff, part of the book, turn sheets, you name it you got it.

Tom

I would like to see a copy of a StarMaster player's turn results, first, I think. The game has a great reputation, it seems, but I still am in the dark about what got players of the game so excited.

Attached to this message are a couple of scanned images from Thomas' old StarMaster turns.

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='1292' dateline='1314122613']
I would like to see a copy of a StarMaster player's turn results, first, I think. The game has a great reputation, it seems, but I still am in the dark about what got players of the game so excited.
[/quote]

Don't know how I missed this thread.

Think it was the ability to do just about anything within reason, and the fantastic writing.

I will have to dig out our alliance's newsletter and post some battle results from our Emperor.

The GM's of the game wrote out detailed and descriptive battle and turn results. You were there during the epic fleet battles, or when dimensional invaders attacked your planets. The writing was that good.

It was almost like D&D, where the DM would tell the story, but everything was bound by the rules and mathematical formula's.

I came into the game late sadly. As a start up alliance, my special encounters are much more simpler. The attached files are the special encounter for my last turn I ever received, and just when it was getting real interesting. I will never know if my outpost will survive the next day.

I was the last Minister of Information for the Lyranian Star Imperium alliance. So I have a bunch of old Imperial Newsletters, some of them have Lyranian battle reports, which are much more interesting, and put any Star Wars or Star Trek fleet battles to shame.

I would love to find a PBM game that does the same thing that StarMaster did, but haven't found it yet. It would be a time consuming game for any game master.[attachment=29][attachment=30][attachment=31]

[quote='Starkadder' pid='1997' dateline='1339915077']
I came into the game late sadly. As a start up alliance, my special encounters are much more simpler. The attached files are the special encounter for my last turn I ever received, and just when it was getting real interesting. I will never know if my outpost will survive the next day.

I was the last Minister of Information for the Lyranian Star Imperium alliance. So I have a bunch of old Imperial Newsletters, some of them have Lyranian battle reports, which are much more interesting, and put any Star Wars or Star Trek fleet battles to shame.

I would love to find a PBM game that does the same thing that StarMaster did, but haven't found it yet. It would be a time consuming game for any game master.
[/quote]

Excellent PBM materials that you posted, Starkadder! I enjoyed reading them.

Another battle special action, from the Lyranian Star Imperium alliance newsletter.

Concerning the Eudorian's efforts to eliminate the invading Illian swarm from their homeworld, sort of assisted by the Lyranian Star Imperium.

[attachment=34][attachment=35][attachment=36][attachment=37]

Ah! This is the best post of 2012!
I wished there was someone who would take up the job and started GM the game again!

The attached files are the first half of Operation Thunderbolt, which features the Lyranian assualt on the Vekkan home system. This comes from the August 1991 issue of The Imperial Newsletter.

Here is the second and final half of Operation Thunderbolt. I would have loved to have seen this battle at the movies.

I played StarMaster from Colorado while still in High School and loved it. I must admit that I spent a ton of money on that game as I managed 7 planets and 3 empires at one point. I was co-leader of one of the major alliances in the game called SECOR with our main rivals being the Imperial Dragorn Empire / Alliance. Also, long distance phone calls were a major expense too trying to keep allies happy and coordinated.

Later the game rights were purchased by Pete Dorman and Russel Norris who I believe were actual game masters for StarMaster. Their new product is called SuperNova and the company they run is called Rolling Thunder Games. This new version was actually Play-By-Email and the turns came in .PDF format. Again we had a major presence and consequently Pete and Russ moved their headquarters from Sacramento, CA to Broomfield, CO where we all lived.

Because of the massive record keeping that was involved I created a parse program and management solution in Excel which is still being used today by those still playing.

Anyway, I would still be playing that game if it wasn't so expensive, but because it is that way I play other online MMO's such as Everquest II, EVE Online, and Star Wars the Old Republic.

[quote='Tom Thomas' pid='1185' dateline='1308981685']
:D How sweet it was and is. I still have all of the SM materials that I used back in the 1970's to include the original S&sons book.

I can remember it taking a long time to play, as I started playing in Germany in the 70's. Boy, was the mail slow then.

I take it out and enjoy reading the stuff all over again. I may be the only one to still have all of the original stuff that was sent during play.

Tom
[/quote]

Any chance of scanning the rulebook?

Any chance that this game will be back and running again???
Wishfull thinking....

[quote='walter' pid='2604' dateline='1382267672']
Any chance that this game will be back and running again???
Wishfull thinking....
[/quote]

The next generation of Starmaster II is SuperNova: Rise of the Empire, go to http://www.rollingthunder.com/supernova/

[quote='RevBluejeans' pid='2605' dateline='1382315172']
[quote='walter' pid='2604' dateline='1382267672']
Any chance that this game will be back and running again???
Wishfull thinking....
[/quote]

The next generation of Starmaster II is SuperNova: Rise of the Empire, go to http://www.rollingthunder.com/supernova/
[/quote]

Perhaps I am wrong, but don't think we are talking about the same Starmaster game.

Starmaster had a fictional story element, that the game masters would write up each turn for each of the players, along with the normal gameplay mechanics.

If SuperNova provides that same service, I would be interested in it, but I have never heard of a RollingThunder game that does.

[quote='Starkadder' pid='2617' dateline='1382754121']
[quote='RevBluejeans' pid='2605' dateline='1382315172']
[quote='walter' pid='2604' dateline='1382267672']
Any chance that this game will be back and running again???
Wishfull thinking....
[/quote]

The next generation of Starmaster II is SuperNova: Rise of the Empire, go to http://www.rollingthunder.com/supernova/
[/quote]

Perhaps I am wrong, but don't think we are talking about the same Starmaster game.

Starmaster had a fictional story element, that the game masters would write up each turn for each of the players, along with the normal gameplay mechanics.

If SuperNova provides that same service, I would be interested in it, but I have never heard of a RollingThunder game that does.
[/quote]

Played Starmaster II, and got turns but there wasn't all that much of a storytelling aspect - most of the story came from the interplay of the players.

[quote='RevBluejeans' pid='2620' dateline='1382777629']
[quote='Starkadder' pid='2617' dateline='1382754121']
[quote='RevBluejeans' pid='2605' dateline='1382315172']
[quote='walter' pid='2604' dateline='1382267672']
Any chance that this game will be back and running again???
Wishfull thinking....
[/quote]

The next generation of Starmaster II is SuperNova: Rise of the Empire, go to http://www.rollingthunder.com/supernova/
[/quote]

Perhaps I am wrong, but don't think we are talking about the same Starmaster game.

Starmaster had a fictional story element, that the game masters would write up each turn for each of the players, along with the normal gameplay mechanics.

If SuperNova provides that same service, I would be interested in it, but I have never heard of a RollingThunder game that does.
[/quote]

Played Starmaster II, and got turns but there wasn't all that much of a storytelling aspect - most of the story came from the interplay of the players.
[/quote]

Sounds more like Hyperiums, than Starmaster. Thanks.

What was Hyperiums?

I came into the game very late. Was stationed in Hawaii and a friend played it. He convinced me to give it a try. My people were amphibians. I joined the Lyrian Star Imperium and was just starting to get somewhere when the game was shut down. I had only gotten in about 7 turns when they shut it down. I kept all my Star Master stuff for many years because in the letter informing players that they were shutting the game down, they said it may start back up in the future. Alas, it never did and when I got married. I threw a lot of stuff in the garbage. My Star Master stuff was included. I still miss the game to this day. Even though I only had about 7 turns and I never got into a battle. I tired playing several other play by mail games, but none of them captured my imagination like Star Master did and I quit playing them after only a few months. If Star Master came back today, I'd sign up for it in a heart beat.

One of the big baddies in the game that I remember was the "Illian Swarm".

[quote='Jman' pid='2929' dateline='1393904940']
I came into the game very late. Was stationed in Hawaii and a friend played it. He convinced me to give it a try. My people were amphibians. I joined the Lyrian Star Imperium and was just starting to get somewhere when the game was shut down. I had only gotten in about 7 turns when they shut it down. I kept all my Star Master stuff for many years because in the letter informing players that they were shutting the game down, they said it may start back up in the future. Alas, it never did and when I got married. I threw a lot of stuff in the garbage. My Star Master stuff was included. I still miss the game to this day. Even though I only had about 7 turns and I never got into a battle. I tired playing several other play by mail games, but none of them captured my imagination like Star Master did and I quit playing them after only a few months. If Star Master came back today, I'd sign up for it in a heart beat.

One of the big baddies in the game that I remember was the "Illian Swarm".
[/quote]

What made the Illian Swarm such big baddies?

Also, what - exactly and specifically - was it about StarMaster that captured your imagination, unlike any of the rest of them?

Can't speak for Jman, but if I remember my Starmaster days correctly and it was a very long time ago under Schubel & Son, what captured my imagination was your ability to choose your type of home world and design your race, ideally to take advantage of the environment you chose. Your race could almost be anything you could imagine. There were a few restrictions plus advantages and penalties for choosing various characteristics. For example, if you chose claws as your appendages, you might receive a disadvantage in construction. You could choose the number of limbs, mode of movement, scales, skin, etc. You got to choose your gov. type. Some choices effected your ability to research, build, combat, etc.

I'm sure Jman's memory is better than mine and can correct and/or add to this somewhat. Not sure what fired Jman's imagination, but would interested in hearing it. Hopefully my memory isn't too far off the mark.

nazareth

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='2838' dateline='1391560238']
What was Hyperiums?
[/quote]

Hyperiums is a long running online 'social' space war game. It is a nice game and I play with a good group of people in our alliance. But it is strictly a war game. There is no story, no exploration, and no wonder to it. Which is what the real StarMaster brought to the field.

You can play the permanent Hyperiums game for free, or donate for more features.

[quote='Nazareth' pid='2935' dateline='1393974444']
Can't speak for Jman, but if I remember my Starmaster days correctly and it was a very long time ago under Schubel & Son, what captured my imagination was your ability to choose your type of home world and design your race, ideally to take advantage of the environment you chose. Your race could almost be anything you could imagine. There were a few restrictions plus advantages and penalties for choosing various characteristics. For example, if you chose claws as your appendages, you might receive a disadvantage in construction. You could choose the number of limbs, mode of movement, scales, skin, etc. You got to choose your gov. type. Some choices effected your ability to research, build, combat, etc.

I'm sure Jman's memory is better than mine and can correct and/or add to this somewhat. Not sure what fired Jman's imagination, but would interested in hearing it. Hopefully my memory isn't too far off the mark.

nazareth
[/quote]

Know nothing about Schubel & Son. When I joined StarMaster it was run by Allen Pitt and Richard Lloyd under the KSK Concepts banner. Received a letter from Allen Pitt around Jun 1994 advising that they had no real plans to restart StarMaster because of the work involved and the need to automate more of the book keeping functions. He also advised, that him and Richard were playing a World War II PBM game run by Steven Phillips.

The Illian Swarm were the badass vampiric villain race of StarMaster. They were a NPC race, but they may have had a paying player run them for the gamemaster. You can read about them in the player turns for the Eudorian Conflict in the attached files earlier in this thread.

Tried finding my LSI newletters again, but since I have taken them out, they are probably buried under other papers.

I came across a StarMaster morsel, this night. I wonder if any of these names will jar any PBM memories in the minds of PBM players of old.

There were different dimensions, apparently - 3rd Dimension, 4th Dimension, etc.. What was the game's take on dimensions? Was each dimension a separate set of players who were otherwise playing their own game of StarMaster in their own area of space, but perhaps there was a way for empires from one game/dimension to interact with or attack players in other games/dimensions?

Names of player empires included: Valkyrian Empire, Chronometric Humans, and the Red Gammau Cybernauts.

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='3113' dateline='1397449449']
I came across a StarMaster morsel, this night. I wonder if any of these names will jar any PBM memories in the minds of PBM players of old.

There were different dimensions, apparently - 3rd Dimension, 4th Dimension, etc.. What was the game's take on dimensions? Was each dimension a separate set of players who were otherwise playing their own game of StarMaster in their own area of space, but perhaps there was a way for empires from one game/dimension to interact with or attack players in other games/dimensions?

Names of player empires included: Valkyrian Empire, Chronometric Humans, and the Red Gammau Cybernauts.
[/quote]

Allen Pit and Richard Lloyd who were the game masters would be the perfect people to know, even Kevin Novack who played the Lyrian Star Imperium might have some idea.

What little play I did, did introduce other dimension travel. I found aliens (NPC race) rounding up native aliens (NPC race) and taking them back to their home dimension. But never had the chance to investigate more because the game ended, so I don't really know the mechanics of dimensional travel. The only major player empires that I knew of were the Lyrian Star Imperium and the Vekkans (with their Huntress). Of course the Illian Swarm were a major problem for many other player empires.

I was just going through my old games and found both Starmaster and Starmaster II. Doing an internet search got me here. I played a couple of turns and quit. I seem to remember it was rather expensive, for me, at the time but just my style.

I do seem to have all the documentation, all the forms, computer printouts, a bunch of event cards ...

I suspect it is all quite rare and very interesting to the right person. I'm thinking of selling it.

Can you take a picture of them, for us? Just spread them out on a table, and photograph it, if you get a spare moment and feel so inclined.

[quote='GrimFinger' pid='3428' dateline='1401925854']
Can you take a picture of them, for us? Just spread them out on a table, and photograph it, if you get a spare moment and feel so inclined.
[/quote]

Already done that, but the only camera I have uses actual film. It will take a week to get developed and transferred to a digital format.

If you are interested, it appears I played 13 turns in early 1984. I have The original race description I created and registration sheet; Galactic update news letters; Computer combat results sheets; Computer print out of the ship file library giving all the specs to all the ships I could get; all the filled out turn sheets; trade sheets; life form evaluation and comparison sheets; planet production sheets; diplomacy turn sheets; Game master remarks; special action forms; system discovery forms; lots of questions to GM with their answers. Player information sheets giving details, beyond the official manuals, about things like combat, trade, colonies, diplomacy, meta engineering. A couple of inches of stacked 8x11 sheets of paper for it appears I pretty much kept everything.

My point in supplying this is that it is far more info than I can conveniently take pictures of and supply here. I took pictures of empty forms because of the intention of selling it, but it strikes me that perhaps, what you are looking for here perhaps would be some filled out forms or the detailed player information sheets that give detailed info on subjects beyond what the manuals give. Is there anything specific you want?

I did some extensive scanning for you guys:

StarMaster.pdf (Aprox. 100+ scanned pages, 76+MB)

It isn't everything but you've got at least a sample of most things...

P.S. I tried to attach the file but it was too big and your forums choked on it. So I have a link to the scans stored in a dropbox.

Any comments from the game moderators would be of particular interest, as would your original race description. Any or all of it would be interesting, of course. For all that I know, you may well have the most complete collection of StarMaster material around. I would like to see the front covers of any of the company-produced material. Special actions seemed to be one of the things that made the game hyper-popular, during its heyday.

I'm interested in all of it, but if you want to make PBM gamers' mouths water, scatter it out on a table, and take a few photos of it. It's the not knowing what all is there that will keep them curious for all eternity.

Did you download the pdf from the link? What you are asking for exists there. I know it is a big file, but if you want details then ...

By the way, I could scan in more if someone wanted more.

[quote='P5-133XL' pid='3432' dateline='1401989965']
Did you download the pdf from the link? What you are asking for exists there. I know it is a big file, but if you want details then ...

By the way, I could scan in more if someone wanted more.
[/quote]

I just got home a short while ago. I'll check it out either later tonight or tomorrow. Thanks much!

[quote='P5-133XL' pid='3432' dateline='1401989965']
Did you download the pdf from the link? What you are asking for exists there. I know it is a big file, but if you want details then ...

By the way, I could scan in more if someone wanted more.[/quote]

I downloaded it and browsed quickly through it. This is the equivalent of a gold mine.

StarMaster was one of the truly legendary PBM games of all time. It was before my time, as a PBM gamer. I've never encountered such a treasure trove of StarMaster material before.

A huge personal thank you to you for your effort in giving us such a wonderful glimpse back in time!

We would love to have more. I hate the thought of such a true classic of the play by mail genre being effectively forgotten, as far as the details of the game are concerned.

- Charles -

Looks like Schubel & Sons ran it early on, then probably sold it to the former game masters who ran it till the end. Since I saw Richard Alan Lloyds name on one of the Galactic Updates concerning the transition from Starmaster to Starmaster II. It became back to Starmaster later it seems.

Great material, though I wish he had the battle action and special action reports for his empire.

I wasn't involved in anything big or a major battle. I was a small new race that only played for 13 turns and was just exploring the local vicinity. I can only supply what happened to me. It is still useful for showing the mundane normal character of the game. I did include multiple special action forms in my scans and they include the results for those actions. I did encounter an Absorton ship. There is a computerized battle report that I partially scanned (Dated Jan 4th 1984, very few items are dated). The computer green bar paper is hard for me to scan since they are much bigger than 8 1/2 x 11. I was tech 45 they were tech 533. I lost two destroyers but using a special order was able to approach, enter and take some tech from the globe ship in aprox. turn 7 according to the GM remark.

Do note that some of the questions I asked are answered and signed by the GM. I notice a Patty, a Tim, a Teri, and a Tate. I also have a question about fees charged where the answer was signed by Patty Schubel.

My StarMaster game (circa early 1984) was definitely run by Schubel and Sons. I still have an envelope that the turns came in. I have both the StarMaster and StarMaster II rule books, but the replies in game itself seems to all be labeled StarMaster. There are pencil notes, I made, as to point costs for race design in the StarMaster II manual so I know I had it at the time. Personally, I do not remember which I was playing other than I was thinking StarMaster which could apply to either.

The name on the scans is not mine. I had a partner and we shared expenses In the questions and special action action forms, you can see both sets of handwriting. However, I now have all the documentation.

P.S. The registration page in the original StarMaster rule book was removed but is intact in my copy of StarMaster II. The registration form sent to Schubel and Sons does not match the form in the back of StarMaster II booklet. From this, and the supporting documents that just say StarMaster, I conclude that I was playing StarMaster rather than StarMaster II.

Based on what you said, it sounds like KSK Concepts bought the rights for StarMaster from Schubel & Sons, sometime around 1985 - 1986. Me and Jman joined the game in that time period, while stationed in Hawaii.

Don't think StarMaster will ever come back, or even that someone else would make something similar. Even if you automated everything that you could, it is the writing that is going to kill you. Don't even want to think how much time the gamemasters spent writing out that major battle between the Lyrian Star Imperium and the Vekkans, at the Vekkan homeworld (see earlier posts for the download).

But I have my fingers crossed.

[quote='Starkadder' pid='3455' dateline='1402200644']
Based on what you said, it sounds like KSK Concepts bought the rights for StarMaster from Schubel & Sons, sometime around 1985 - 1986. Me and Jman joined the game in that time period, while stationed in Hawaii.
[/quote]

Definitely StarMaster:

Scan complaining about StarMaster billing
Original StarMaster Advertisment.

I would be amazed if a nationally scaled GM moderated game could be a profitable enterprise in the United States today. I considered StarMaster to be expensive back then and it would only be more so today. Perhaps, if the moderators were in a foreign country where hourly rates were much lower but then they'd be dealing with language and culture issues that would complicate the situation enormously.

P.S. Your forums choked on the adding of attachments (still too big, though they are not particularly big this time). It also would not allow me to post two images (only one allowed per post). So I did two links.

I'm really trying to make it so my posts in your forums are independent from my files. That way I am not required to host things on a forever basis and if the files disappear on my end, they do not disappear from here.

[quote='P5-133XL' pid='3456' dateline='1402203757']
P.S. Your forums choked on the adding of attachments (still too big, though they are not particularly big this time). It also would not allow me to post two images (only one allowed per post). So I did two links.

I'm really trying to make it so my posts in your forums are independent from my files. That way I am not required to host things on a forever basis and if the files disappear on my end, they do not disappear from here.
[/quote]

I tried changing the forum settings. See if the changes help, any.

I am willing to scan in the StarMaster and StarMaster II manuals but since they are copyrighted, I need permission from the publisher. Anyone know where I can get such permission?

[quote='P5-133XL' pid='3456' dateline='1402203757']
I would be amazed if a nationally scaled GM moderated game could be a profitable enterprise in the United States today. I considered StarMaster to be expensive back then and it would only be more so today. Perhaps, if the moderators were in a foreign country where hourly rates were much lower but then they'd be dealing with language and culture issues that would complicate the situation enormously.
[/quote]

Bulgaria and the Philippines do level up services for WoW characters. So the practice is not unheard of. But I think you are right about the complications. Not only would you need to find people who could at least read and write English, they would also need to be able to create a story from the turn's hard data.

The gamemasters for StarMaster tried modernizing their software so they could automate more of their work, but that work and the actual running of the game, did them in. As it was near the end, it took weeks and/or months to receive a turn. They simply did not have the time to run and moderate the game, while having a steady job and family life.

When I was playing I was assigned Account #140, ID #2982 from an itemized turn cost sheet on 6/14/84. The #140 is only on the itemized cost sheet but the #2982 is on every turn sheet. It is my assumption that the ID# was computer ID that specified every race in the StarMaster game including NPC's and the Account number would be the bookkeeping account to keep funds separate.

Those numbers are low enough to know that there were not very many people playing/paying. One does not ever reuse account numbers and they tend to be enterprise-wide (rather than specific to a game) for fear of accidentally mixing people's funds. It also tells something about how rare my manuals are since the standard way to get them was to signup and play which would generate a new account number. I do not even know if the numbers are unique to StarMaster or whether they applied to every game Schubel and Son ran at the time. I have no timeline for all the different games Schubel and Son ran and thereby know not how many, if any, ran concurrently over what years. Even if it is just StarMaster with the larger number of 2,982 paying players It is still hard to believe they could stay in business with multiple game masters to pay wages for.

A successful modern business would need vastly larger numbers to make a profit. WoW works because it is in the millions ... I would argue that Schubel & Son's business model was more a motivation for the love of the PBM idea than for profit.

P.S. I do not remember excessive delays while playing. It may be my poor memory (30 years ago); a function of the lack of players when I was playing vs. when you were; Or just the number of GM's/player that KSK Concepts hired vs Schubel & Son.

I started playing StarMaster when I was 14 and played till I went into the military at 17.

The biggest problem is that when it reached a certain size, the human processed turns began to bog down and be missed or very, very late. It was a small operation (staffwise) and it was more than they could do.

The extra "dimensions" are when they started breaking up the "universe" and were essentially different games (so the GMs could process turns separably).

The biggest issue with it today was Star Master became very "Pay-2-Win" as a result of the need to increase staff to process turns. I did a time analysis and came up with the maximum number of players I could process and it was pretty limited within that two week window. Eventually, I think they reached the point of diminishing returns having to hire processors.

All that said though--fantastic game and wonderful fun. My uncle was in his twenties and started playing (after first telling me how dumb it looked).

One of the things that made it fun was you got to "hand build" your race. You created a unique creature (think "Spore") and then with the strengths and weaknesses of your design you joined Pinky and tried to take over the world (or hide well).

The game ran pretty smoothly but in the end you could tell the turn processing was just killing them. One thing they did do in the last couple of years was generate unique, GM introduced encounters. You'd discover a black hole and an "entity" would invite you to come inside--if you would swear an allegiance to them. That sort of thing. Waiting 1-2 weeks for turns was soooo tension building.

Yes, designing my own race was the best part and mine is included with my scans. I actually had hope for Spore but it was very disappointing.

It was always my intention to sell my copy of StarMaster. Here is a link to my Ebay Auctions for anyone interested in purchasing.

StarMaster
StarMaster II

P.S. Both items sold ...

If any of the old StarMaster players, still keep in touch or have contact information for Kevin Novack, (he was the leader of the Lyrian Star Imperium), he might still have a wealth of information and more importantly, battle results.

Though getting in touch with those two old game masters from KSK Concepts might even be better.  Interviews with them would probably be fantastic.  Will have to dig up their names from my old turn result envelopes, when I get home from overseas.

[quote='P5-133XL' pid='3524' dateline='1405038882']
It was always my intention to sell my copy of StarMaster.  Here is a link to my Ebay Auctions for anyone interested in purchasing.

StarMaster
StarMaster II

P.S. Both items sold ...
[/quote]

I only found this site recently--- Richard Lloyd was the creator & GM for StarMaster from "KSK Concepts" --I worked with him in processing the turns, also wrote the software the turn sheets were generated from (running off one of the old model Apple Macs of the time). If anyone's interested I can put you in touch with him, for questions/interviews etc.

[quote='Gorice' pid='136377' dateline='1500290346']
I only found this site recently--- Richard Lloyd was the creator & GM for StarMaster from "KSK Concepts" --I worked with him in processing the turns, also wrote the software the turn sheets were generated from (running off one of the old model Apple Macs of the time). If anyone's interested I can put you in touch with him, for questions/interviews etc.
[/quote]

Send me his e-mail address, if you have it.

His email address is: mirrorEarths@compuserve.com -----

My bad--- mirrorearths@cs.com is the correct one--the former is no longer valid.

It's : mirrorearths@cs.com, sorry the other was an earlier /no longer used one.

I have sent an e-mail to Richard Lloyd. Perhaps he will write back.

Actually, Richard already previously registered at this forum.

http://playbymail.net/mybb/member.php?action=profile&uid=1870

He just hasn't posted yet, it seems. Hopefully, he will.

Yes, but he had problems posting (maybe there's an initial period before you can?) so he kind of gave up. I then registered & after a few weeks I was able to post. He asked me to try posting his email address to see if anyone wanted to contact him.
He'll probably start posting here if there's a response/demand for such.

Probably because I fell off the face of the planet for a while. Tell him that he should be able to post, now, as far as I know. My apologies for his inconvenience.

Hi folks. I occasionally check this forum to see what Starmaster lore is still out there. I would love to get scans of the rule books and what other information is available. Is anyone able to re-post functional links or perhaps send me a some info?

As I recall I was in the 6th Lower Galaxy. Lots of good memories on this game.

The 'quote' function doesn't seem to be working.

Were you ever able to get ahold of Richard Lloyd?

[quote='Starkadder' pid='137919' dateline='1588975032']
The 'quote' function doesn't seem to be working.

Were you ever able to get ahold of Richard Lloyd?
[/quote]

Hit quote and then reply.

[quote='Starkadder' pid='137919' dateline='1588975032']
The 'quote' function doesn't seem to be working.

Were you ever able to get ahold of Richard Lloyd?
[/quote]

Or just click reply.

[quote='Starkadder' pid='1997' dateline='1339915077']
I came into the game late sadly.  As a start up alliance, my special encounters are much more simpler.  The attached files are the special encounter for my last turn I ever received, and just when it was getting real interesting.  I will never know if my outpost will survive the next day.

I was the last Minister of Information for the Lyranian Star Imperium alliance.  So I have a bunch of old Imperial Newsletters, some of them have Lyranian battle reports, which are much more interesting, and put any Star Wars or Star Trek fleet battles to shame.

I would love to find a PBM game that does the same thing that StarMaster did, but haven't found it yet.  It would be a time consuming game for any game master.
[/quote]

I cannot see the actual attachments.  All I see is "[attachment=29]" etc.  On Grim's earlier post with attachments, I cannot even see that...

I don't think the forum's are set up for attachments, so you have to use third party file sharers, which are only temporary if you are not willing to pay for them.

Maybe I am wrong.  The bottom of the page says I have 9.65 MB.  Though I don't know just how much that is if you are attaching scanned image files.

[quote='Starkadder' pid='138001' dateline='1592268942']
I don't think the forum's are set up for attachments, so you have to use third party file sharers, which are only temporary if you are not willing to pay for them.

Maybe I am wrong.  The bottom of the page says I have 9.65 MB.  Though I don't know just how much that is if you are attaching scanned image files.
[/quote]

Thanks!

[quote="Lugh" pid="137947" dateline="1589204337"]
I cannot see the actual attachments.  All I see is "" etc.  On Grim's earlier post with attachments, I cannot even see that...
[/quote]

It may be on your end. I checked the earliest attachments, just now, and they work fine on my end.

Anyone else unable to see the attachments in the earlier pages in this thread?

[quote='Starkadder' pid='138001' dateline='1592268942']
I don't think the forum's are set up for attachments, so you have to use third party file sharers, which are only temporary if you are not willing to pay for them.

Maybe I am wrong.  The bottom of the page says I have 9.65 MB.  Though I don't know just how much that is if you are attaching scanned image files.
[/quote]

The forum is set up for attachments.

Click on new reply, and then scroll down at the bottom and you'll fine the New Attachment option.

[quote="P5-133XL" pid="3429" dateline="1401950030"]
[quote="GrimFinger" pid="3428" dateline="1401925854"]
Can you take a picture of them, for us? Just spread them out on a table, and photograph it, if you get a spare moment and feel so inclined.
[/quote]

Already done that, but the only camera I have uses actual film.  It will take a week to get developed and transferred to a digital format.

If you are interested, it appears I played 13 turns in early 1984.  I have The original race description I created and registration sheet; Galactic update news letters;  Computer combat results sheets; Computer print out of the ship file library giving all the specs to all the ships I could get; all the filled out turn sheets; trade sheets; life form evaluation and comparison sheets; planet production sheets; diplomacy turn sheets; Game master remarks; special action forms; system discovery forms; lots of questions to GM with their answers.  Player information sheets giving details, beyond the official manuals, about things like combat, trade, colonies, diplomacy, meta engineering.  A couple of inches of stacked 8x11 sheets of paper for it appears I pretty much kept everything.

My point in supplying this is that it is far more info than I can conveniently take pictures of and supply here.  I took pictures of empty forms because of the intention of selling it, but it strikes me that perhaps, what you are looking for here perhaps would be some filled out forms or the detailed player information sheets that give detailed info on subjects beyond what the manuals give.  Is there anything specific you want?

I did some extensive scanning for you guys: 

StarMaster.pdf (Aprox. 100+ scanned pages, 76+MB)

It isn't everything but you've got at least a sample of most things...

P.S.  I tried to attach the file but it was too big and your forums choked on it.  So I have a link to the scans stored in a dropbox.
[/quote]

I know I am several years later, but I am co-authoring with an associate of mine a book on game theory and its use in games played at a distance - play by mail games are a great area fro research and as such I have been trying to collect scans of rulebooks for old play by mail games - I saw this one for starmaster and was sad to see the dropbox link no longer worked - could you contact me as I would love to see a scan as part of the research we have embarked upon. By the way if you can point me further to other places I could find such scans please let m know. Victoria P.

[quote="vickyp" pid="138513" dateline="1623964697"]
I know I am several years later, but I am co-authoring with an associate of mine a book on game theory and its use in games played at a distance - play by mail games are a great area fro research and as such I have been trying to collect scans of rulebooks for old play by mail games - I saw this one for starmaster and was sad to see the dropbox link no longer worked - could you contact me as I would love to see a scan as part of the research we have embarked upon. By the way if you can point me further to other places I could find such scans please let m know. Victoria P.
[/quote]

You've come to the right place for old PBM research. The Wiki hereabouts points to lots of games that are still available (in some form) along with rulebooks (many directly from "the old days"). And I'm sure you'd have plenty of help picking up such things from the membership hereabouts, and lots of commentary on how the game designs provide balance appropriate to good game theory.

Also looking for a copy of the original rules or close enough.   A pdf is fine, have never seen one of the originals up on e-bay but clearly I missed one a few years back.

Wondering did the e-mail to the owner of the game ever get back to anyone and if it is still OK to reach out to him?  Happy to purchase the rules as pdf, even a scan of the old rule book.  My copy got lost in a move in 1984.

Just thrilled to actually find a place and people that remember this game.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284176199776?hash=item422a38b060:g:fnoAAOSwMb5gICEa

[quote="ravenzachary" pid="138551" dateline="1625515273"]
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284176199776?hash=item422a38b060:g:fnoAAOSwMb5gICEa
[/quote]

Thank You!   Ordered and so looking forward to it.

Much fancier than the one had and lost decades ago, mine was just this plain light blue, no graphics, very fanzine-ish.

So it arrived a while back, actually faster than seller predicted.   All as advertised by the seller.  Very happy, even programed up a spreadsheet to make alien design easy and to off-load the math to out silicon overlords :) .    A bit refined and expanded from what I recall, notice a different publisher from the original (the original was Schubel & Son).  

Recently have been going over all old Space Gamers and Dragon magazines, especially Space Gamer.   Got me thinking about all those old PBM games from the 70s and how can find and preserve...and perhaps revive for play one way or another...them.

[quote="xanther" pid='138622' dateline='1631976340']
Recently have been going over all old Space Gamers and Dragon magazines, especially Space Gamer.   Got me thinking about all those old PBM games from the 70s and how can find and preserve...and perhaps revive for play one way or another...them.
[/quote]

Well, there are efforts along those lines now. Here are some I am in.

Far Horizons (Space 4x) is being recoded and beta tested now. Contact info is in the Far Horizons: The Return folder here. There are still positions in the game available. You will be a bit behind, but can use it as a learning experience for when it gets relaunched.

Galac-Tac (Space 4x) is running. See the folder here. There are multi-player and single player games available. You can even set up a single player game to run every day to help learn.

Supernova II (open ended, long term space exploration game) is running, and is run by some former Schubel and Sons staffers. It's a lot like Starmaster, and is well run. Again, see the folder here.

All the Flying Buffalo games (Starweb, Nuclear Destruction, etc.) are available, and can be found at http://rickloomispbm.com/ (Flying Buffalo sold the non-PBM games and the Flying Buffalo name to another company recently.)

Midgard (open ended wandering tribes and city management game) is being revived with a new game engine. Still in late beta, positions available. Contact via https://knightguild.com/membership-login/ and the Discord link there. A turn was just run and a new set of rules are about to be published.

[quote="P5-133XL" pid="3429" dateline="1401950030"]
[quote="GrimFinger" pid="3428" dateline="1401925854"]
Can you take a picture of them, for us? Just spread them out on a table, and photograph it, if you get a spare moment and feel so inclined.
[/quote]

Already done that, but the only camera I have uses actual film.  It will take a week to get developed and transferred to a digital format.

If you are interested, it appears I played 13 turns in early 1984.  I have The original race description I created and registration sheet; Galactic update news letters;  Computer combat results sheets; Computer print out of the ship file library giving all the specs to all the ships I could get; all the filled out turn sheets; trade sheets; life form evaluation and comparison sheets; planet production sheets; diplomacy turn sheets; Game master remarks; special action forms; system discovery forms; lots of questions to GM with their answers.  Player information sheets giving details, beyond the official manuals, about things like combat, trade, colonies, diplomacy, meta engineering.  A couple of inches of stacked 8x11 sheets of paper for it appears I pretty much kept everything.

My point in supplying this is that it is far more info than I can conveniently take pictures of and supply here.  I took pictures of empty forms because of the intention of selling it, but it strikes me that perhaps, what you are looking for here perhaps would be some filled out forms or the detailed player information sheets that give detailed info on subjects beyond what the manuals give.  Is there anything specific you want?

I did some extensive scanning for you guys: 

StarMaster.pdf (Aprox. 100+ scanned pages, 76+MB)

It isn't everything but you've got at least a sample of most things...

P.S.  I tried to attach the file but it was too big and your forums choked on it.  So I have a link to the scans stored in a dropbox.
[/quote]

KrisPieDave here, I am interested in this pdf, but the dropbox has long since expired (11 years now) can someone help me get the pdf? please :)

I am also interested in this game. Is the original author still around?

Grimfinger did Richard Lloyd ever get back to you?  Probably not, since you never mentioned it.

[quote="Talisman" pid="138716" dateline="1648657559"]
I am also interested in this game.  Is the original author still around?
[/quote]

Sadly not yet.  Probably need to send the Vekkan Huntress to go look for him.

Well, I manage to stumble across this, today. I guess that it wasn't lost, after all.

https://grimfinger.net/StarMaster.pdf

[quote="GrimFinger" pid="138722" dateline="1651759992"]
Well, I manage to stumble across this, today. I guess that it wasn't lost, after all.

https://grimfinger.net/StarMaster.pdf
[/quote]

Great find, Charles!

My first play-by-mail game was Starmaster. The year was 1984 and I was 11 years old. I learned about this game from a cheap ad in the back of Dragon magazine. Play-by-mail, what a cool concept. I designed an empire (The Crystal Cryons, named after one of my cats) and excitedly waited for my first turn. On turn one, my home world was visited by a floating advertisement ("Ships R Us"?!) wanting to sell me powerful ships as a new empire, and that wrecked immersion right off the bat. Space was already commercialized before my young empire had the chance to get there. What was the point in continuing? I dropped out.

[quote="Starkadder" pid="138720" dateline="1651378334"]
Grimfinger did Richard Lloyd ever get back to you?  Probably not, since you never mentioned it.
[/quote]

Nope.