New troll on board

[kwll]

Hello there, Kwll here. I was introduced to this site and the Suspense & Decision magazine by a post on the trollbridge, which is basically a board about the Tunnels & Trolls RPG. I used to play DuelMasters and Quest when I was a teen, but that was a long time ago. I found out that DuelMasters still exists with another name; I am not sure about Quest.

I am tempted to start playing again, since I like strategy games -- mostly computer games (Master of Orion/Magic, Galactic Civilization, Civilization, Alpha Centaury) or board games. However the long term price of what seems to be the better games (Alamaze, Hyborian Wars, Middle Earth, Phoenix, Starweb, etc.) is horrifying! Even taking into account the human factor, the resources necessary to keep good quality games going and the limited number of players, I still have a hard time to convince myself playing these games over decade old computer games for my strategy fix...

[Ok, don't shoot ]

[GrimFinger]

Hi, Kwll, and welcome aboard the site!

I tried Duelmasters, long ago, and while I didn't really care for it, it does actually retain a lot of players, currently. Many gather at this forum.

I never played Quest. What was it like?

One thing that you might want to consider, at least one thing that I recommend that you consider, is to not try and look at PBM games as a "complete strategy fix" for your gaming needs/wants.

Especially if one is new to PBM, or if one is just returning to PBM after an absence of a bit, then a gradual introduction to the genre might prove helpful.

The price of many things is "horrifying," I suppose. People complain about the price of gas, even though buying soup in typical can size is vastly more expensive than gasoline, comparatively speaking. The trick may be to intentionally limit how deeply that you immerse yourself in the PBM hobby. Too much, too fast, can get a bit overwhelming - as can be the case with many non-PBM games or other forms of entertainment.

One way to look at PBM games is as sort of an icing on the cake type of things. Personally, I enjoy many different forms of entertainment. I run this PBM site, and a couple of more, as well, plus I do the Suspense & Decision magazine, but even still, I wouldn't want PBM to be my only source of entertainment, not even if I am referring to just and only gaming entertainment.

Plus, if you join PBM games with a few friends that you already know, that can often act as a value-plus modifier of one's enjoyment of such games. You can always make new friends, playing such games. I always did. But, going into a PBM with existing friends can sometimes provide an additional "fun boost" for your gaming money. Just be careful to end up actually playing something that you want to try, and not just something for the sake of appeasing your friends. That way, you help to maximize your chances of personal enjoyment of the game.

[kwll]

Quest was some kind of overland role playing game, where your character (or characters? I cannot remember) could fight monsters, collect treasures, meet other characters and, of course, participate to... quests. I lost the rulebook a long time ago, so I cannot say much more about it. Looking further, I found this: maybe it is the same game?

You are right to emphasize the social aspect of PBM, which is obviously absent in strategy games when playing with a computer. And I concede that the price aspect is only relative: I wish I was wealthier, in which case this whole conversation would be irrelevant... But at the end of the day, you have at your disposal a certain amount of leisure time, a certain budget, and all the things you like. What I was trying to express, I guess, is that all these things considered I find it hard to justify to myself the money investment.

Now maybe I am just really asking to be convinced... or to be introduced to these free/cheap games I did not notice but are as good as the others!

Looking forward, I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, even for such a niche hobby, someone did not think about another way of generating revenue. There is so much creativity in all these free games found in Facebook or mobile platforms, or even these large scale free MMOs. I mean, if Flappy Bird could generate $50000 in ad revenue per day, why couldn't we imagine a sufficiently well designed PBM able to generate even a very small fraction of that (but for a longer time)?

Just my 2 cents.

[BuffaloRick]

Looking forward, I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, even for such a niche hobby, someone did not think about another way of generating revenue. There is so much creativity in all these free games found in Facebook or mobile platforms, or even these large scale free MMOs. I mean, if Flappy Bird could generate $50000 in ad revenue per day, why couldn't we imagine a sufficiently well designed PBM able to generate even a very small fraction of that (but for a longer time)?

Of course we have "thought about it" but getting from here to there when we have limited resources is sometimes not possible. The main difference between a free "ad supported" online game, and a human run pbm game is that with our games you get the personal touch. When you pay your turn fee, you are paying the weekly salary of the guy who processes your turn. You can email us and get a response, you can call us on the phone. Chuck is here 7 days a week, and I am here likewise. And you get a game with real strategy, as opposed to the impressive graphics of the "free" games. At any rate, I offer a "trial rate" for Starweb of $1 per turn (every two weeks) for your first game (if you ask for the special rate).
Rick Loomis, Flying Buffalo Inc

[Rick McDowell]

Now maybe I am just really asking to be convinced... or to be introduced to these free/cheap games I did not notice but are as good as the others!

Looking forward, I find it hard to believe that in this day and age, even for such a niche hobby, someone did not think about another way of generating revenue. There is so much creativity in all these free games found in Facebook or mobile platforms, or even these large scale free MMOs. I mean, if Flappy Bird could generate $50000 in ad revenue per day, why couldn't we imagine a sufficiently well designed PBM able to generate even a very small fraction of that (but for a longer time)?

Just my 2 cents.

Of course, PBEM is not competing with Angry Birds, or even WoW for that matter. Those games are for the massive instant gratification crowd that want to jump in and start clicking stuff immediately and see the pixels move.

I'd say players of Sid Meier's Civilization, other PC turn based strategy or the old board games a bit more complicated than Risk (maybe Axis & Allies, Shogun, Diplomacy, Avalon Hill games) are probably the mentalities better suited to PBEM.

Thanks for the kudos on Alamaze, and pricing is now much more affordable. We offer a monthly subscription for $19.95 that provides for six or seven turns a month (depending on the calendar). Players may spend about 3 hours a turn actually committing to their orders on a given turn and possibly conducting diplomacy, and more than double that considering all the possibilities for the current situation and planning ahead. So in that case, a player might be spending about $0.50 an hour to enjoy a deep, rewarding strategy game with 14 other intelligent adults.

Service is at the highest level, we believe, for this kind of game that does involve professional moderation. For example, turns are due at noon Eastern US, and players can expect to have them back in their hands by about 2pm Eastern the same day.

We invite you to visit the Alamaze forum where you'll find about 10,000 posts made in the last several months, and our website where you can find the map, rules, sample turns, and of course, can sign up.

Visit www.Alamaze.co (not .com) to see for yourself.

[KJC Games]

ABM used to run Quest in the states under license. We now run all Quest games, online, by email and even post (we even post out to a few guys over in America).

Most if not all games have a free or trial play option and as such I would also advise trying a few games, not just one or two and give them a fair crack of the whip. The depth of the games is appreciated through immersion.

Only after you have done this will you be able to see if the game justifies the expense once the trial period ends or you want to get more involved.

[GrimFinger]

Also, if you're worried about whether a particular game has a lot of players or not, if you gather a small group of friends, together, depending upon the game, you might even be able to talk the game moderator into starting a game for just you and your friends.

The obvious downside to this approach, of course, is that gaming with players that you've never met, before, really is one of the greatest benefits of playing in PBM games, or the ancestral descendants, thereof.

I don't play DungeonWorld (which is run by Madhouse), but I dare say that it is a game which would be well-suited to joining with a small group of friends, even just three or four. That game is pondering a change in its pricing, though. See here for that announcement.

If you go the Hyborian War route, I would suggest that you make your first game a large kingdom, even though it costs more to play. More important than cost, where that game is concerned, is that it is highly advisable to be in the thick of the action, right from the start - even if you end up getting crushed, your first time around. It's the best way to get the flavor of the game in your mouth. Pretty much anywhere in the northwest of the Hyborian War map will yield a lot of action for you. It can certainly put you on edge.

[Nazareth]

You can also go to Lords of Conquest, which offers several different games. You can play for free or play a 'royalty' position for a small fee of ~$1.50 per turn. (really a donation to keep the site and games running). A royalty position gets a few more benefits in the game than the commoner position, but looking at the completed games, and there are many, I have not noticed any single victory winners. All have been alliance victories, usually a combination of both positions. In fact, a coalition of commoners could win and may have done so several times.

I had played Medieval Diplomacy 1 many years ago when it was the only game offered. I have just revisited the site and found that they have revised that game, Medieval Diplomacy 2, with much more detail and added another 3 or 4 games. To be successful you will need to involve yourself into some level of diplomacy. I have only read the rules for Medieval Diplomacy 2, but the game mechanics look very similar, with I'm guessing only an occasional change here and there to fit the period in question. They offer an ancients, Napoleonic and space variant as well as a fantasy option. You need to download their software program so you can send and receive their turns. Having said all that, I haven't played any of their new games yet.

The price is right if you are wanting to get back into pbm/pbem. Might be worth a look.