PBM is dead! Long live PBM!

[ixnay]

I see certain games out there that provide delayed feedback. Farmville makes you wait in real-time as your crops grow, for example. But then again it's not "turn-based". Still, I would consider it a "PBM-like".

Turn-based via a web interface might be tricky to pull off with an audience used to real-time actions. Essentially turn-based approaches are synchronous, but with sufficient time between turns allow for asynchronous interaction -- especially between-turn diplomacy.

In the game I am working on, I will go the turn-based route, even though it will be web-based. It may only appeal to us dinosaurs, but it will be much easier to program, and still give me valuable experience. Maybe real-time can come in phase 2.

[JonO]

Do you have comments turned off or am I just too dumb to find them?

[GrimFinger]

Comments? Here? Just hit the REPLY button.

[JonO]

Sorry, no I was replying to Ramblurr. I miss the good old days when message boards had threaded messages.

[Ramblurr]

Sorry, no I was replying to Ramblurr. I miss the good old days when message boards had threaded messages.

Comments where? On my blog? If so, no, they aren't off per-se, they just don't exist. My blog is a very lightweight static html setup with Jekyll and git, and I'm too lazy to implement comments and the headache that brings.

Feel free to reply here though, I definitely encourage the conversation. If its not related to PBM, shoot me an email or PM.

And, yes I do miss the threaded conversation days of early web forums.

[JonO]

[*]Lack of instant feedback to create suspense/anxiousness

This was the first thing you listed that (IMHO) is unlikely to be duplicated in a browser-based game. And I would argue that while suspense might be less if you find out right away whether you attempted sale of 1,365 widgets to the gremlin tribe went through at the price you asked for, there will be fewer players receiving a return that they read as saying "Since your first order failed, every following order failed, too. Thank you for contributing $5.95 to the GM's retirement fund, sucker."

[*]Imagination based (as opposed to graphic visuals)

If the graphics become the game and the action range of orders is limited as sometimes happens, then I'd agree that graphics are a hindrance, but even back in the day, there were ASCII graphics games on, for instance, Compuserve that players would be addicted to playing so much that they'd max out their credit cards. I think that there are times when the cliche about a picture being worth a 1,000 words is true.

The main problem is, as GrimFinger and ixnay pointed out, is that there has yet to emerge a game that has all these qualities and makes use of modern technology.

Then it is up to us to fix that, right?

[Ramblurr]

[*]Lack of instant feedback to create suspense/anxiousness

This was the first thing you listed that (IMHO) is unlikely to be duplicated in a browser-based game. And I would argue that while suspense might be less if you find out right away whether you attempted sale of 1,365 widgets to the gremlin tribe went through at the price you asked for, there will be fewer players receiving a return that they read as saying "Since your first order failed, every following order failed, too. Thank you for contributing $5.95 to the GM's retirement fund, sucker."

Yes, though I believe future PBM style games that take advantage of modern technologies will be able to provide the traditional delay in feedback+suspense that older games provided, but also leverage the new tech to allow some actions to be instant.

For example, trading or communication between players could go as fast as the players can respond to eachother, whereas jumping a fleet across the galaxy to battle would take longer.

That is, future games will have some faster/instant actions and others that take longer. I think the delay is important, because many people don't have time to play a game every day for a couple hours.

They are dedicated games we require depth, but lack the time to be "hardcore" gamers. In the casual-hardcore spectrum, they lie somewhere in the middle when it comes to time available to play, but all the way to the right when it comes to expectations.

[*]Imagination based (as opposed to graphic visuals)

If the graphics become the game and the action range of orders is limited as sometimes happens, then I'd agree that graphics are a hindrance, but even back in the day, there were ASCII graphics games on, for instance, Compuserve that players would be addicted to playing so much that they'd max out their credit cards. I think that there are times when the cliche about a picture being worth a 1,000 words is true.

Again, good point. I'm not opposed to all graphics, not by any means, but rather the use of graphics to supplant the imagination. Intense 3d games of today leave nothing to the imagination, they submerse you in a sea of 3D visuals and cinema quality sound, making it a very visceral experience.

There is nothing wrong with these games, indeed, I play them regularly, rather I'm just looking to engage my intellect once in awhile.

Then it is up to us to fix that, right?

Absolutely! I'm looking forward to see how your Rimworlds reincarnation progresses.

[JonO]

Absolutely! I'm looking forward to see how your Rimworlds reincarnation progresses.

Yeah, me too.

[ixnay]

The delayed feedback thing is important. But I do *love* the idea of having a split system, where certain actions take place immediately. If PBM is to enter the platform spaces of the modern era (web, facebook, iPhone), then we need to enable certain levels of activity at all times, particularly communication.

But even in traditional PBM, there are levels of delayed feedback. One of the hallmarks of Empyrean Challenge's production system is that everything you can build takes 4 game turns to move through your factories, during which your factories must continue to consume energy and raw materials, and your workers must continue to eat and get paid. Want to switch to something else? Gotta retool those production lines, first! Got a new technology? It will take at least 4 turns before you see the results of your scientific research hit the field.

Far Horizons, on the other hand, has a one-turn production cycle, with the option to do multi-turn work on large expensive ships. (Which, per my understanding, is too risky. Just put the production into "economic units" and wait until your pool is big enough to buy the ship in one turn.)

In the old computer game Master of Orion 2, you can switch production and research at the drop of a hat with no penalty. Not so in Civilization, where retooling carries significant penalties and careful planning is rewarded.

I remember this old school wargame put out by SPI called "global war" (wwii), in which any of the major powers could endeavor to build "the bomb", but at such a long lead time that the game could easily end before completion.

[Ramblurr]

One thing to keep in mind when comparing the rate at which things progress in game, is the in game "time passage" that one turn represents.

I'm not familiar with Empyrean Challenge, but in FH, one turn is 5 in-game years. So it makes sense to produce things in one turn.

Of course I don't think that is the end-all solution. Each game will have its own flavor which contributes to its uniqueness. Otherwise I would have become sick of the sci fi 4X genre years ago.

This doesn't belong in this thread, but: I do think FH could use some fixing or re-design in certain areas. One of which is drawing things out over longer turns, and more technologies.

Personally, I loved the technology system in Rolling Thunder's Supernove: Rise of the Empire. Tech's took ages and ages to research, but the result was gaining one new technology was a significant event! Of course it took you several turns to put the tech to use. In many other games (MOO, CIV1-5, etc.) new technologies are quickly supplanted by newer versions, i.e., you don't even get a chance to implement a tech before the next one is finished.