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Structure - Steve Kort - 01-31-2020

We need more structure with with the game design and go through a step by step advancement.  While I have seen many good ideas all of them could be great or terrible pending on how you are setting up the History of the game they may not all be able to fit after you make other decisions.  My assumption so far has been you are looking to reboot the game some time in the future of the past versions.  If this is the case we need to know certain things before we proceed. 

1)  How far in the future are you looking at?

2)  What if any events have taken place during that time.

These 2 questions must be answered before we proceed on to faction redesigns or ideas on what is available or how they were affected.  Also are you going to use the old existing maps or are you going to modify them?   You could greatly modify the maps by having some sort of cataclysmic event have taken place, also since you stated before of not starting with ships you could have the cataclysm having destroyed all the ports and greatly damage all coastal cities.  Wiping out all major ships and just now are they being rebuilt.

Now if my main assumption about the game being a future of the past ones, then my point is still valid as we need to know the history so we can accurately create things so they make sense together and individually.   After all enemies and allies will very much be decided by how the history of things are decided.

Until these things are decided discussing any sort of factions or how or what they may have or do is pointless and a waste of time and effort.  I personally will not be talking about factions and any modifications to them until these sort of guidelines have been decided.  As I will not waste time on things that will not fit in the history background that you decide to use at some future date.

Once basic history is decided then I think you discuss the major factions in the game.  Which I veiw as the Imperials, Boda, Banner then Roder, Ring, Gift, then the rest.

RE: Structure - Davin - 01-31-2020

Well, I agree.  I've been trying to get contributions for the history as well.  At present, the consensus seems to be that we go back in time to the asteroid strike, make it more destructive, and rebuild things from there.  There's also been some talk of re-making the Imperials to not be such all-around bad guys so they don't have everyone as an enemy right off the bat.

So what's you're opinion of how the history should be rebuilt?  Have you comments on what the players have contributed about it in other threads?

RE: Structure - DreamWeaver - 01-31-2020

Ok then if we want to look at it that way, lets get rid of or not start with either the Getham, Roder Families and the Banner Religion

Thus lets redesign the Imperials to a kinder faction like the Imperial Republic, and the Boda Noble House.  Let those two factions stand up as the two real contenders for the heart and body of Midgard. These two factions can both be at odds with one another. The Boda could be as I have stated a former Guild within the Imperial Republic that stood up faster and seem to survive better  with coming together out of the ruins after the great ruin before the Imperial Republic could manage to reform itself again. They are not really enemies of each other but it is a land grab at this point, as they both try to collectively convince all the cities of at least northern Midgard to join either of their two causes instead of just remaining Independent. The former Roder and Geham Nobel Houses could be left in a state of Limbo as being out there talked about but just have not really stood up yet as well as others that are also rumored to also exist (gives room to maybe expand in the future if there are players to consider doing that).

Then that leaves room to set up a Barbarian culture of the Skelts within the deep forests of southern Midgard. These Skelts are enemies to both the Imperial Republic and Boda Noble House and will fight both of them on the spot. They don't want either of them in their lands of Sothern Midgard, and will raid the other two as well. The Cymru could have stood up in Kalmar as the People's Defenders against the Imperialisms of the Imperial Republic and the Boda Nobel House.

So that would give you the following factions then:

- Imperial Republic (at odds with the Boda and enemies of the Skelts)
- The Boda Nobel House (at odds with the Imperial Republic and enemies of the Skelts)
- The Skelts (enemies of both the Imperial Republic and the Boda Noble House, uneasy true with the Cymru)
- The Cymru (at odds with the Imperial Republic and the Boda Noble House uneasy truce with the Skelts)

As to the religious wars, well I think both the Gift and Ring have a place and would work great within the game. However I would take the Banner silent for now and add another Moorlock religion like either the Serkeanar or The Cult of the Dark One and keep the Blood & Fire silent like the Banner. So maybe do the following: The real Religous wars has not truly started yet and both the Banner and Blood & Fire are silent but not stood up yet. If in the future there are enough players with the desire then they can then be stood up and restarted.

- Gift (at odds with the Moorlock religion Serkeanar or Cult of the Dark One, allie of the Ring)
- Ring(at odds with the Moorlock religion Serkeanar or Cult of the Dark One, allie of the Ring)
- Serkeanar or Cult of the Dark One (enemy with the Gift and Ring, wanting to spread all across Midgard and Kalmar and trying to win the support of the people)

So this would mean then that you would open up both Midgard and Kalmar continents for game play with I would advise some rework of those maps a bit just to make them a little more different. Also it would make the Cymru being the People's Defenders of Kalmar, and slight odds against a religion that was not really for the benefit of the People. So their might be some uneasiness between them and any of the controlling Moorlock religions of the Searkeanar or The Cult of the Dark One.

RE: Structure - Steve Kort - 02-01-2020

(01-31-2020, 04:43 AM)Davin Wrote: Well, I agree.  I've been trying to get contributions for the history as well.  At present, the consensus seems to be that we go back in time to the asteroid strike, make it more destructive, and rebuild things from there.  There's also been some talk of re-making the Imperials to not be such all-around bad guys so they don't have everyone as an enemy right off the bat.

So what's you're opinion of how the history should be rebuilt?  Have you comments on what the players have contributed about it in other threads?
Personally I do not like the idea of re-making the Imperials and here is why.   They make for the ultimate invaders to the land and create a foe that will take everything and everyone to defeat.  Especially if they are set up to send resources back to the Imperial Homeland which I would make as a closed area of the game.  This would make them a potential problem for every faction no matter what there goal is, as they would be taking resources away from the land.  So even religions that might want to avoid conflict would at least avoid assisting them because they are taking needed resources away from this area.  This makes for a very valid enemy for most other factions.  I would see both the Boda and the Roder as highly opposed to them and keeping them in check at all cost.   I agree the Roder should be designed more like the Rohim in the Lord of the Rings. 

This is why I would place the game 60-100 years in the future after another meteor strike, which could have even been religiously motivated like the destruction of the followers of Moorlock.  Explaining the non-existance of the Blood & Fire and Serkenar in the game.   Also further feeding the Banner as religious zealots of the One True God.   Their need to stomp out those of any other faith to prevent this from happening again,  as the One True God struck done the defilers.  This then makes any Heretics a major threat and whether you officially create the Cult of the Dark One as an active faction or the unknown forming faction that the Banner is looking to stomp out.   Rumors of Hidden Shrines and stuff will keep them running all over the place.

RE: Structure - Davin - 02-01-2020

(01-31-2020, 09:26 AM)DreamWeaver Wrote: Ok then if we want to look at it that way, lets get rid of or not start with either the Getham, Roder Families and the Banner Religion
If you want to go that way, then what do you do about the special "features" of these factions?  IOW, who would be the horse warriors and who would be most interested in increasing trade, etc.?  It's possible that nobody "does that" now, which would leave room for them to "rise from the ashes" in the future, but does that leave a hole in the starting game system that nobody is filling but is needed, even early on?

RE: Structure - Davin - 02-01-2020

(01-31-2020, 09:26 AM)DreamWeaver Wrote: Then that leaves room to set up a Barbarian culture of the Skelts within the deep forests of southern Midgard. These Skelts are enemies to both the Imperial Republic and Boda Noble House and will fight both of them on the spot. They don't want either of them in their lands of Sothern Midgard, and will raid the other two as well.
So are the Skelts strictly organized as a faction should be, or are they a loose collection of mostly-independent groups?  If the latter, then do they need to be a player-based "faction" or would an NPC group work just as well, such as a locale-specific version of barbarians?  Is this something that players really want to play in themselves, and if so, how do you "organize" barbarian cultures to turn them into a player faction?

RE: Structure - DreamWeaver - 02-01-2020

Make them a NPC bad guy like the Bandits or Pirates...The Skelts were fashioned after the "Celts" , but they had a strong belief in the Old Gods. Make them a mis-understood culture that the rest of the game fights against. This way it gives you the GM a great resource to draw on and use as a mega Bad Guy.

RE: Structure - Davin - 02-01-2020

(02-01-2020, 01:58 AM)Steve Kort Wrote: Personally I do not like the idea of re-making the Imperials and here is why.   They make for the ultimate invaders to the land and create a foe that will take everything and everyone to defeat.  Especially if they are set up to send resources back to the Imperial Homeland which I would make as a closed area of the game.  This would make them a potential problem for every faction no matter what there goal is, as they would be taking resources away from the land.  So even religions that might want to avoid conflict would at least avoid assisting them because they are taking needed resources away from this area.  This makes for a very valid enemy for most other factions.  I would see both the Boda and the Roder as highly opposed to them and keeping them in check at all cost.   I agree the Roder should be designed more like the Rohim in the Lord of the Rings. 

Well, Steve, I certainly understand about having "ultimate invaders" and I'm willing to discuss the options.  But I worry about how that's going to affect the game balance.  In the past, as I understand it, Imperials had to have super defensive structures and abilities because otherwise everyone would have to band together to wipe them out.  I don't much like that much heavy-handedness in the game design and forcing the hand of the players.  Among other things, it forces the players to do something, and I'm not comfortable with using that kind of force (in any form).

If you want to keep the Imps as invaders, why don't we back them off so they're just infiltrating a little at a time in several different places, so conflicts with them will be localized and don't require the resources of every other faction working together just to keep them at bay.  If all you need are general foes that everyone can hate, then why can't the less-organized groups (bandits, etc.) provide that opposition?

Can you think of a way to keep them working similarly to the past and yet they aren't so overwhelming that others have no choice in how to behave with them?

RE: Structure - Davin - 02-01-2020

(02-01-2020, 01:58 AM)Steve Kort Wrote: This is why I would place the game 60-100 years in the future after another meteor strike, which could have even been religiously motivated like the destruction of the followers of Moorlock.  Explaining the non-existance of the Blood & Fire and Serkenar in the game.   Also further feeding the Banner as religious zealots of the One True God.   Their need to stomp out those of any other faith to prevent this from happening again,  as the One True God struck done the defilers.  This then makes any Heretics a major threat and whether you officially create the Cult of the Dark One as an active faction or the unknown forming faction that the Banner is looking to stomp out.   Rumors of Hidden Shrines and stuff will keep them running all over the place.

I don't have a problem moving forward in time instead of backwards as long as we can come up with a reasonable history to build out of it.  My biggest problem with another meteor strike is that the first one already strained credibility and I think that a second one is just going too far.  Can you come up with some other sort of reasonable-sounding calamity that can still happen well after the first strike and leave all the players and factions starting off on a relatively even footing?

RE: Structure - Davin - 02-01-2020

(02-01-2020, 04:08 AM)DreamWeaver Wrote: Make them a NPC bad guy like the Bandits or Pirates...The Skelts were fashioned after the "Celts" , but they had a strong belief in the Old Gods. Make them a mis-understood culture that the rest of the game fights against. This way it gives you the GM a great resource to draw on and use as a mega Bad Guy.

Having the Skelts be NPC bad guys that you can find almost anywhere (such as in any heavily forested area) sounds perfectly fine to me.  I have no problems creating almost any number of different kinds of NPC bad guys, as long as they're reasonably different from the players and from one another in some material way.