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+--- Thread: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? (/showthread.php?tid=197)
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RE: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? - Gads - 05-24-2011
Sorry GrimFinger, but I have to agree with Jon.
I have read this thread and can see both sides of the argument, but I do think you are missing Jon's point.
You do tend to shoot 'us' down! You've been actually very nice to me of late regarding my blogging etc, but if I get onto the subject of online versus pbm, it can get a little heated.
People like Jon and myself and other GameMasters who during the hayday actually designed games and ran them for a living, who had offices, employed people and serviced thousands of players do have some experience and understanding that quite frankly you will never have. We've been there and done it, gone through the challenges and actually seen how the internet and online gaming has effected the demise of PBM in it's original state to what it is today. It actually happened, our business felt it, we had to change with the times and the transition was difficult for many reasons.
For this reason our opinions do hold some value.
From a player's point of view your opinion is just as valid as another, but from a PBM Company's point of view? I'm not so sure.
The few PBM companies that are running today and / or restarting are all looking towards online technologies. Any company that is serious about running a half professional game and service for more than a handful of players are going online. The vast majority of players want this.
Sorry, I was starting to get back into that age old topic of online versus postal!! Oops.
But you should try to be a little nicer to us guys, cos we are really trying hard to bring PBM into the 21st century.
(05-24-2011, 12:38 AM)JonO Wrote: As I said, I have no problem being disagreed with in a respectful manner. However, simply saying, "You're wrong, and here's the way things are," is not respectful, especially if you are talking to me, or Casey or Sean. It's like a virgin explaining sex to a whore.
(05-23-2011, 11:43 PM)GrimFinger Wrote:(05-23-2011, 10:10 PM)JonO Wrote: I suggest you reread your responses to just about everything I ever posted here on the subject of gaming. I certainly do not mind being disagreed with and usually learn something from having that happen. However, having my opinions dismissed out of hand and without merit is not something I intend to grow accustomed to.
We each have our own respective opinions, and we are each entitled to them. I certainly can't guarantee that I will necessarily agree with anyone's opinion on anything.
I don't have to dismiss an opinion out of hand, in order to disagree with it. Whether I agree with your opinion or not, or with someone else's opinion or not, is a distinct issue from whether they are welcome or not.
No one on this site has to share your opinion, just as no one on this site has to share my opinion, or anyone else's opinion. If you want to share your opinions, you are free to do so. If you don't want to, then that is certain your choice, Jon. In order for their to be intellectual freedom, individuals must be allowed to think for themselves, and to form opinions of their own. I try to keep spambots from overrunning the forums. Other than that, I extend great leeway unto site users to post their opinions. No site user is required to conform to the opinions of others.
RE: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? - GrimFinger - 05-24-2011
(05-24-2011, 01:18 AM)JonO Wrote: Thank you for proving my point, Grim. Once again you dismiss my perceptions as meaningless and without merit and then you then go on to twist what I have said as if I ever suggested you or anyone had to agree with me.
I could continue to argue, but why bother? Once someone starts twisting what I say in order to score strawman points, I lose interest. You wanted to know why I've stopped posting here, and I've told you.
You're free to post or to not post, Jon. That's your choice, of course.
I couldn't care less about strawman points. I post my opinions, when I take a notion to. Others do, as well.
If no one wants to post, then no one has to. In any event, no one has to share your opinion, nor my opinion, nor any other opinion, if they don't want to. I would shut the site down, before I required such nonesense.
RE: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? - GrimFinger - 05-24-2011
(05-24-2011, 06:29 AM)Gads Wrote: Sorry GrimFinger, but I have to agree with Jon.
I don't mind your agreement with Jon, Sean.
(05-24-2011, 06:29 AM)Gads Wrote: I have read this thread and can see both sides of the argument, but I do think you are missing Jon's point.
You do tend to shoot 'us' down! You've been actually very nice to me of late regarding my blogging etc, but if I get onto the subject of online versus pbm, it can get a little heated.
People like Jon and myself and other GameMasters who during the hayday actually designed games and ran them for a living, who had offices, employed people and serviced thousands of players do have some experience and understanding that quite frankly you will never have. We've been there and done it, gone through the challenges and actually seen how the internet and online gaming has effected the demise of PBM in it's original state to what it is today. It actually happened, our business felt it, we had to change with the times and the transition was difficult for many reasons.
For this reason our opinions do hold some value.
From a player's point of view your opinion is just as valid as another, but from a PBM Company's point of view? I'm not so sure.
The few PBM companies that are running today and / or restarting are all looking towards online technologies. Any company that is serious about running a half professional game and service for more than a handful of players are going online. The vast majority of players want this.
Sorry, I was starting to get back into that age old topic of online versus postal!! Oops.
But you should try to be a little nicer to us guys, cos we are really trying hard to bring PBM into the 21st century.
Well, everyone is free to form their respective opinions on what they think constitutes "being nice" to site users or to participants in a discussion or debate.
I didn't create the site to either be mean or to be nice. Discussions that involve opinions that differ can and do become heated, at times. I haven't seen any discussion on this site, yet, that has even been lengthy enough, to be heated. Everyone has their own opinions on such things, though.
Here, there are different programmers each going their own way with what they think will be the right way to create a game with a PBM type of feel that harkens back unto the olden days of play by mail. Some of their thinking, I agree with. Some of it, I don't.
RE: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? - JonO - 05-24-2011
The posts you have made over the last months make me think this isn't really a site, it is a blog, and anyone who has an idea different from yours will be told that in spite of their years of experience in the field, they have no idea what they are talking about. Although you were awfully quick to trot out your credentials as a constitutional scholar, you seem far less impressed with the blood, sweat, tears, awards, and years of experience the three of us have than with your own uninformed opinions on how to run PBM successfully.
Ultimately, why you think you created this site isn't particularly important. The truth is that the three PBW companies are responsible for most of the posts and most of the interest in this site. Attacking us and making us feel unwelcome will shut it down.
You could have taken my original remarks to heart - understood that the perceptions of your contributors are extremely important to to success of this site, and tried to insure that you stopped coming across as Moses reading off the Ten Commandments. Instead you immediately began another round of "Everybody's wrong, but me." It is OK, Grim, to admit you're wrong. Sometimes, it is even advisable to do it when you think you may be right.
RE: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? - ixnay - 05-25-2011
Chiming in here...
I agree with both of you.
Grim, you are correct of course, when you say that everyone has their own opinion, can post accordingly, and absolutely need not agree with anyone else. We're all big kids, here.
Jon, I agree with you in that many of Grim's posts are negative and abrasive, marring an otherwise supportive environment for PBM. He could do much more to "disagree without being disagreeable".
I would hate to see either of you cut back on your presence here! Jon, you should take Grim with a grain of salt. He's cantankerous and opinionated, but this is often the fodder of great debates. Grim, you can debate issues and still be strongly supportive of your "opponents". We all want to see the PBM space grow and thrive. There are different ways to get there. Vive la difference.
I myself keep meaning to post more, here, but I really want to get a game of my own started up so I can feel more like one of the big boys. Real life keeps interfering, but I hope to break ground on a semi-automated space empire game sometime this summer.
In the meantime I keep monitoring this site for updates, and definitely enjoy reading posts from all of you!
RE: Can Play By Mail Gaming Survive the Devouring Hand of Time? - tstone - 01-17-2012
I'm with ixnay here. I think Jon is being too sensitive, yet Grim is being a bit too abrasive. But I don't think either of you are trying to offend or otherwise dismiss the other.
I'm going to just say this. We are relatively few in a larger somewhat unfriendly environment, in that what we are advocating here runs against the grain, technologically, culturally. If we are to have any real future at keeping the hobby alive, those of us who seek to do so need each other.
No room for pettiness and egos, no room for children. We need to be adults, with skins thickened by maturity, but also with the knowledge that we are all here together on the same side and want the same thing, to advocate for our rarified passion.